D&D 4E What do you think of the 4E background to demons & devils?

[Nifft]

We're back to god>archfiend. That's really unfortunate.

True dat.

IMC, there are no "evil gods". There are just Archfiends.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Shemeska]

Well, if devils are fallen angels, and demons are (ahem) elemental evil, 'loths could be:

Lemme add a few of my own. 'Loths could be:

1) The ones who whispered the idea of deicide into Asmodeus's ears, and those who corrupted Tharizdun and led to his creation of the Abyss. But where they came from is yet unknown...

2) The least servitors of one of the banished Primordials who represented abstract Evil, now seeking to release their fallen master by the perversion of the new nature of reality

3) Natives of another reality, the devourers of souls from foreign shores who arrive wearing smiles and offering such wonderful treasures and services to mortals and fiends alike, asking only for favors or a little small thing in exchange. Bit by bit they take and drain the creative spark, leaving multiverse by multiverse gray and hopeless.

4) The ashes left over from the creation of the first gods. Rejected bits of apotheosis who seethe against that which feels it can exist without them, working in shadow to corrupt the works of good and evil gods alike.

etc.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

3) Natives of another reality, the devourers of souls from foreign shores who arrive wearing smiles and offering such wonderful treasures and services to mortals and fiends alike, asking only for favors or a little small thing in exchange. Bit by bit they take and drain the creative spark, leaving multiverse by multiverse gray and hopeless.

This one, I like. "What do we want? Nothing much; just a little enclave here, trespassing rights there, a few portals to get around. Say, we have some things you might want; trifling little things, really. A few ideas, some magics, a handful of baubles... That one? You want that? Certainly! Now, there's just the matter of payment... Oh no no, we don't want your soul - unless you want to get rid of it? No? Gold will do, then. Here you are; this will certainly help you in your quest. And remember to mention where you got it from; we have more."

 

[GravyFingerz]

Those who see my article as broad strokes are on track. Those who see demons as forces of unmaking are on track. The article's (and Rich Baker's) generalities will get their refinement as the game evolves. Graz'zt won't need to be a devil, for example. He can have his place in the Abyss, right alongside Lolth (but below her, since she's a deity) without contradicting the broad strokes at all. Each specific entity can heve exceptions to the general.

Yay!!!

I am so smart! I am so smart! S M R T! I mean S M A R T!

 

[Eosin the Red]

Never much liked the Great Wheel. This, however, I could dig. I doubt that I'll use it much but it certainly does mirror my fantasy more than past iterations.

 

[GreatLemur]

What, no "I don't care, as I'm unlikely to ever use demons or devils as published, anyway" option?

 

[Glyfair]

What, no "I don't care, as I'm unlikely to ever use demons or devils as published, anyway" option?

That would be the "I'm in the middle." There is only so much room in the polls to give basic descriptions, I can't list every reason you might be in the middle.

 

[Khur]

We're back to god>archfiend. That's really unfortunate.

I don't see how it's unfortunate or something we're "back to." Gods (meaning the primary gods of a setting) have always been greater than archfiends. That doesn't mean that a god has nothing to fear from an archfiend.

Or are you referring to the near omniscience that gods possess in some versions of D&D? I have to say, if that is what you’re talking about, that nothing in any preview material can lead to the conclusion that gods in 4e possess that kind of power. I’m not saying they don’t, mind you—I’m just pointing out that we haven’t said they do.

And I’ll also point out that the fact that I used Graz’zt as an example doesn’t mean Graz’zt is necessarily in 4e as a demon lord or anything else for that matter. And the previous statement doesn’t mean he’s definitely not going to be in 4e in some form.

 

[Rafilar]

Graz'zt won't need to be a devil, for example. He can have his place in the Abyss, right alongside Lolth (but below her, since she's a deity) without contradicting the broad strokes at all. Each specific entity can heve exceptions to the general.

And Malcanthet? How does she fit in? With what you've given us so far, she's either a) an exception that makes no sense (demon queen of succubi, who are now devils), or b) no longer any relation to her existing persona and story.

So, which bad option are you taking?

I like the new cosmology, and I like the "devils = corruption, demons = destruction" concept. Truth be told I've been using very similar things in my home game for years. But just as my players can't stand it if I retcon in changes to the campaign, the customers are going to be pissed when the designers retcon in changes to the setting. And in this case it's bound to be vocal and extreme, because you've invalidated a popular character right out of existence. Good work there.

 

[dmccoy1693]

So while I don't hate the change, I grow increasingly wary of fluff changes that take the game away from the tradition I've enjoyed my whole life.

That's really my problem with all the changes. Some of the changes are brilliant, some are ok, some I'm less then ok with, but many of them are a complete reimagining of the game and not what I have come to expect when I play D&D. As far as demons/devils goes, I like the fact that they are being given more defined rolls, but I don't really care for their direction.