What do you think of these variants of some DotF prestige classes?

[retan]

I have tried to redesign some of the prestige classes from defenders of the faith that either I or my players found to be unbalanced. Brief writeups are given below. What do you think of them?

1: Consecrated Harrier

I felt that several of the abilities of this class, particularly "blessing of scripture" were too powerful. I have therefore toned down the class somewhat. I gave him favored enemy because I see this class as the "clerical equivalent" of the ranger class.

Requirements
Alignment: Any Lawful
BAB: +5
Skills: Disguise 5, Gather information 5
Feats: Track
Special: The candidate must accept an assignment from her church to locate and destroy some specific individual enemy of the church. A character who fails must wait for a year and a day before applying again.

Features
Hit Die: 1d10
BAB: Good
Fort save: Good
Ref save: Normal
Will save: Normal

Class Skills: concentration, diplomacy, disguise, gather information, intimidate, intuit direction, knowledge (religion), profession, search, spellcraft, wilderness lore.

Skill Points: 4+ int modifier.

Weapons & Armor: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields.

Favored Enemy (ex): As the ranger ability. A character who is already a ranger adds his ranger levels and his consecrated harrier levels together to determine the strength of this ability. A consecrated harrier can choose an organization rather than a species as a favored enemy. A typical example would be the followers of a particular god.

Detect Chaos (sp): You may Detect Chaos, as the spell, at will.

Sanctified Sight (su): At 3rd level, you gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against illusions.

False Vision (su): At 6th level, you may hide yourself from scrying as with the spell False Vision cast as a wizard one level below your level. You may use this ability one time per day plus your wisdom bonus (if any).

Implacable Hunt (su): At 8th level, if you wound a creature that you have been assigned by your church to hunt and that creature escapes, you always know the direction and approximate distance to the creature. This ability only works if you and the creature are on the same plane of existence.

Faultless Hunt (su): At 10th level, if you have an Implacable Hunt on a creature, and the creature is on another plane, you now know which plane it is on.

Spells: Use the spell progression table for Holy Liberator. Use the spell list for consecrated harrier for spells of levels 1 to 4.

Multiclass note: A paladin who becomes a consecrated harrier may continue advancing as a paladin.

2: Holy Liberator

My players felt that immunity to an entire school of magic (enchantment) was too powerful. I have therefore toned down the holy liberator somewhat.

Requirements
Alignment: Chaotic Good
BAB: +5
Skills: Diplomacy 5 ranks
Feats: Iron Will

Features
Hit Die: 1d8
BAB: Good
Fort save: Good
Ref save: Normal
Will save: Good

Class Skills: Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Handle Animal (cha), Heal (wis), intimidate (cha), knowledge (religion) (int), profession (wis), ride (dex), sense motive (wis).

Skill Points: 2+ int modifier.

Weapons & Armor: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields

Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Smite Evil, Celestial Companion and Spell casting as given in defenders of the faith.

Resistant Mind: You get a +1 bonus as a morale bonus to saving throws against mind-affecting effects at 1st level. This bonus increases by +1 at 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th level.

Subversion: At 10th level, as a full-round action, you can touch a target to attempt to free it from a mind-affecting effect. The target may make a new saving throw against the effect with a bonus equal to your charisma bonus

3: Hospitaler

The version of this class in Defenders of the Faith allows a cleric to get fighter BAB with no drawbacks. I felt this was too powerful and wanted to make a class for a warrior type rather than a cleric.

Requirements
Alignment: Lawful Good or Neutral Good
BAB: +4
Skills: Handle Animal 5 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack

Features
Hit Die: 1d10
BAB: Good
Fort save : Good
Ref save: Normal
Will save: Normal

Class Skills: Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Handle Animal (cha), Heal (wis), knowledge (religion) (int), profession (wis), ride (dex).

Skill Points: 2+ int modifier.

Weapons & Armor: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields.

Lay on Hands: As the paladin ability. Paladin levels and Hospitaler levels stack for the purpose of this ability.

Improved Lay on Hands: At 6th level, you can heal an additional number of hit points equal to your hospitaler levels times your wisdom bonus (minimum +1) with your lay on hands ability.

Spells: A hospitaler gains a small number of divine spells. To cast these spells you must have a wisdom score at least equal to the spell level of the spell. The save DC is 10 + spell level + wisdom bonus. Use the progression for the holy liberator. Use the spell list at the end of this post.

Remove Disease: You may use Remove Disease as if you were a paladin of a level equal to your hospitaler levels. If you have paladin levels, these levels and hospitaler levels stack.

Lesser Restoration: At 3rd level, you may use your Remove Disease ability to cast Lesser Restoration instead.

Remove Paralysis: At 5th level, you may use your Remove Disease ability to cast Remove Paralysis instead.

Remove Blindness/Deafness: At 7th level, you may use your Remove Disease ability to cast Remove Blindness/Deafness instead.

Remove Curse: At 9th level, you may use your Remove Disease ability to cast Remove Curse instead.

Neutralize Poison: At 10th level, you may use your Remove Disease ability to cast Neutralize Poison instead.

Multiclass Note: A paladin who becomes a hospitaler may continue advancing as a paladin.

Spell List:

1st: Cure Light Wounds, Endure Elements, Protection from Evil, Remove Fear, Resistance
2nd: Aid, Calm Emotions, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Resist Elements, Shield Other
3rd: Cure Serious Wounds, Magic Circle against Evil, Negative Energy Protection, Protection from Elements, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease
4th: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Healing Circle, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Status

I apologize if this post is difficult to read due to poor formatting. I don't post much so I have little experience with the posting system.

By the way, is there any good way to create tables on this board?

-- Retan

 

[Chacal]

I have no very insightful comment to do, but I like them and agree on the premises you used for modifying them.


Chacal

 

[MarauderX]

Not sure if you saw the "Wearers of Black" thread that bears some resemblance to the Consecrated Harrier, with some differences, but you might get some good comments for that PrC there.

 

[Felix]

I thought the biggest problem with the Hospitaler wasn't in allowing clerics to get a good BAB (the prereq's are 2 ride feats and 5 ranks in two cross class skills! Only with a high INT and only by sacrificing almost all knowledge of concentration, spells and things holy.) I thought it was more of a conceptual problem: why would a healer who hangs out at hospitals and defends the sick from attacks beyond the walls need the Ride skill and feats? Sure, this PrC was made for the Paladin, but something in the requirements doesn't quite jive.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

There's nothing wrong with Consecrated Harrier or Holy Liberator. Blessings of Scripture and Compulsion immunity are powerful but are both quite limited. (Especially Blessings of Scripture since the easiest way to qualify for the class is a Ranger/Rogue or Ranger/Rogue/Paladin combo and the ability effectively precludes the use of stealth to engage the target and eliminates the possibility of sneak attacks--furthermore the damage bonus only ever applies to a single individual at one time). And the classes other abilities of both classes are quite limited.

If you want to limit DotF power inflation, you should do something about the dramatically front-loaded Templar way before you touch either of these classes. (I'd recommend moving weapon specialization back a level or two and putting Mettle at third or fourth level. That would eliminate the Cleric x/Templar 1 combo which is pretty common.

Hospitaller is fine for paladins but overpowered for clerics as written (especially fighter/clerics who can easily qualify for the class with just one level of fighter). So, a better solution might be to either reword the prerequisites or remove the one thing that makes it so attractive to clerics: full spell progression. If spell progression were reduced to 1/2 levels or 3/4 levels, then clerics wouldn't find the choice to take the class a no-brainer. (Alternately, Hospitaller levels could stack with Paladin levels for determining spellcasting abilities on a 1/1 basis but with cleric levels on a 1/2 basis). That's probably better than creating a new spell list which dramatically weakens the class for spellcasters--even part time spellcasters like Paladins.

 

[retan]

Thank you for your replies.

Felix
I kept the requirements as they were in DotF. Looking closer at them, they do seem a bit odd for a protector of hospitals and the sick. One suggestion might be this:

BAB: +5
Heal: 5 ranks
Great Fortitude (to better resist disease yourself)

Elder-Basilisk
The blessing of scripture grants a +10 bonus to attack AND damage rolls at high levels. True, this is against a single monster per adventure, but this is likely to be the toughest monsters in the adventure. A +10 to both attack and damage rolls will in my opinion make this fight very easy if the monster has an appropriate CR.

The problem with the holy liberator was pointed out by my players, and the "immunity to charms and compulsions" ability was only one of them. I didn't really have a problem challenging the holy liberator PC in my last campaign, but this was because I didn't use many wizards, and those that I did use didn't rely on enchantments.

The complaints that my players have are the following:
1: immune to all the spells in the Enchantment school (Which is much better than the paladin's immunity to fear)
2: better saves than a paladin
3: better spell-list than the paladin
4: the same combat power as a paladin
5: the same turning undead ability as a paladin

I don't have DotF available to me now, so I don't know whether your comments on the Templar are correct or not. I will look at the Templar when I have the book and make a comment or revision of the class then.

For the hospitaler, reducing the spellcasting progression for clerics but not for paladins would work. I agree than the class as written in DotF is balanced for a paladin. I am not sure, however, that my version is much weaker for the paladin than the version in DotF. The spellcasting ability of a 10th level hospitaler as I wrote it equals that of a 17th level paladin in number of spells and a 20th level paladin in spell level, and I think that the new spell list that I made is in several ways better than the paladin spell list. According to the player of a paladin in my current campaign, the 2nd level paladin spells are weak. The only spell of that level that he even considers preparing is Resist Elements.

-- Retan

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Thank you for your replies.

Felix
I kept the requirements as they were in DotF. Looking closer at them, they do seem a bit odd for a protector of hospitals and the sick. One suggestion might be this:

BAB: +5
Heal: 5 ranks
Great Fortitude (to better resist disease yourself)

Interesting. The change in prereqs would actually make it much easier for clerics to get into the class though. Which is probably not what you want. I think the DotF requirements were based on the idea that the Hospitallers were a knighthood like the historical Knights of St John (Hospitallers).

Elder-Basilisk
The blessing of scripture grants a +10 bonus to attack AND damage rolls at high levels. True, this is against a single monster per adventure, but this is likely to be the toughest monsters in the adventure. A +10 to both attack and damage rolls will in my opinion make this fight very easy if the monster has an appropriate CR.

That rather depends. It's a very very powerful ability. No question about that. And it makes the Consecrated Harrier very fearsome to his intended target. But that's probably as it should be. The BBEG retreats before the Harrier's dogged pursuit, attempting to put powerful minions (against whom Blessings of Scripture doesn't greant bonusses) in between him and the Harrier. The thing is that the Consecrated Harrier doesn't really get much more than Blessings of Scripture. They get 4 skill points per level but have a pretty lousy list (despite the track prereq, they don't have Wilderness Lore on the list). They get higher level spells than most prestige classes, but their spell list is mostly flavor and utility spells. It doesn't have anything earthshaking on it. They can use Dispel Magic and a False Vision, etc but those aren't really impressive abilities either (especially since the Dispel Magic will never be of high enough level to reliably dispel any full time spellcaster's spells). They get implaccable hunt, etc. which are useful--but only if they can actually take on the enemy they're hunting. And they have blessings of Scripture. If the blessings are nerfed, the class (which I've yet to see anyone except me express much interest in) doesn't have much to recommend it.

The problem with the holy liberator was pointed out by my players, and the "immunity to charms and compulsions" ability was only one of them. I didn't really have a problem challenging the holy liberator PC in my last campaign, but this was because I didn't use many wizards, and those that I did use didn't rely on enchantments.

The complaints that my players have are the following:
1: immune to all the spells in the Enchantment school (Which is much better than the paladin's immunity to fear)
2: better saves than a paladin
3: better spell-list than the paladin
4: the same combat power as a paladin
5: the same turning undead ability as a paladin

1. True. It's even better if you add the paladin's immunity to disease into the mix. But it doesn't grant the bonus to anyone else. OTOH, it pretty much makes the prereq of Iron Will a wasted feat. For that matter, since nearly all enchantments have will:negates as a save, paladins are pretty much immune to them as well by the time Holy Liberators get this ability. Even a paladin's weak saves are often up at +10 to +11 by the time Holy Liberators get this ability.
2. Also true.
3. That's a problem with the paladin spell list and it's easily fixed by either giving the Paladin the Holy Liberator spell list or adding a few spells to the paladin list (Bull's Strength, Endurance, Eagle's Splendor, Prayer) or reducing the level of some spells for Paladins (Weapon of the Deity or Lesser Aspect of the Deity at 2nd or 3rd level for Paladins wouldn't hurt balance any).
4. Highly contingent. A Holy Liberator with prior levels of cleric won't be as good in combat. A holy Liberator with fighter levels and weapon specialization will be better in combat. As far as Holy Liberator levels go though, they're actually slightly inferior to paladin levels in terms of combat powers gained. Smite evil isn't nearly so impressive when you have 10 Holy Liberator levels as when you have 20 paladin levels.
5. Holy Liberators are actually far inferior to paladins in terms of turning ability. A 10th level paladin turns undead as an 8th level cleric. A fighter 4/Cleric 2/Holy Liberator 4 will only turn undead as a 4th level cleric. Holy Liberator turning ability is pretty much only useful against undead that aren't threats to begin with.

Also note that Paladins get Lay on Hands which gets really powerful at high levels (I'd expect a 20th level paladin to be able to use it for at least 200+ points of healing/day). Holy Liberators don't.

I think Holy Liberator is actually pretty balanced against a paladin. The only real complaint paladins have is that their spell list is pathetic. But that's a problem with paladins not Holy Liberators. (And it can be remedied by using various splatbooks and 3rd party publishers).

I don't have DotF available to me now, so I don't know whether your comments on the Templar are correct or not. I will look at the Templar when I have the book and make a comment or revision of the class then.

For the hospitaler, reducing the spellcasting progression for clerics but not for paladins would work. I agree than the class as written in DotF is balanced for a paladin. I am not sure, however, that my version is much weaker for the paladin than the version in DotF. The spellcasting ability of a 10th level hospitaler as I wrote it equals that of a 17th level paladin in number of spells and a 20th level paladin in spell level, and I think that the new spell list that I made is in several ways better than the paladin spell list. According to the player of a paladin in my current campaign, the 2nd level paladin spells are weak. The only spell of that level that he even considers preparing is Resist Elements.

Your spell list is better than the paladin list at level 2 and level 3. However, it leaves off some of the spells that really make spellcasting worthwhile for a paladin: Bless Weapon, Heal Mount and Holy Sword. It also leaves out some of the DotF paladin spells which are actually quite good: Divine Sacrifice, Zeal, etc. 4d8+10 points of healing seems like it's hardly worth a spell by 17th level. Especially when Lay on Hands will probably cure something like 120+ points of damage

 

[retan]

I have now looked at the templar class. This class is in my opinion only slightly overpowered. I have done a slight revision of it, which is posted below. Essentially, I have removed the bonus feats and pushed the special abilities up to make the class less front-loaded.

Templar

Requirements
BAB: +5
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks
Feats: Endurance, Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon)

Features
Class Skills: Climb (str), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Heal (wis), Jump (str), Knowledge (religion) (int), profession (wis), Swim (str).

Skill Points: 2+ int modifier.

Weapons & Armor: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields.

Base Attack Bonus: Good
Fortitude save: Good
Reflex Save: Normal
Will save: Good
Spellcasting: As given in DotF

Specials:
2nd: Mettle
3rd: Damage Reduction 1/-
4th: Weapon Specialization
5th: smite 1/day
6th: Damage Reduction 2/-
9th: Damage Reduction 3/-
10th: Smite 2/day

-- Retan

 

[retan]

Thanks for a long and thoughful response to my prestige classes, Elder-Basilisk. Here are some comments on your last post.

Interesting. The change in prereqs would actually make it much easier for clerics to get into the class though. Which is probably not what you want.

That depends. If you use a full spellcasting advancement, then you do not want to make it easy for clerics to enter. However, if the class uses its own spell list like I suggest or even a halved progression, then I do not think that this is a problem.

I think the DotF requirements were based on the idea that the Hospitallers were a knighthood like the historical Knights of St John (Hospitallers).

That is probably correct.

Consecrated Harriers get 4 skill points per level but have a pretty lousy list (despite the track prereq, they don't have Wilderness Lore on the list).

I personally think that this is a mistake in the DotF class description. A class that specializes in hunting down enemies of a faith should have wilderness lore as a class skill in my opinion.

They get higher level spells than most prestige classes, but their spell list is mostly flavor and utility spells. It doesn't have anything earthshaking on it.

I think that Alter Self (perfect for disguises), Charm Person, Hold Person and Dominate Person are fairly powerful spells. The Consecrated Harrier also gets Legend Lore as a 3rd level spell (This spell is 4th level for bards and 6th level for wizards).

-- Retan