What do you think of this villian

[Monty]

I agree that this villain would be pretty impossible for a 4th-level party to take. If he was surprised, drugged and tied up, then maybe they would have a chance.

The thing I noticed that no one commented on is that the villain can fly. A party of 4th-level characters can't deal with a flying sorcerer.

I wanted to see how well he would do against a 6th-level party that wasn't surprised, as in Winternight's example. Everyone was buffed and ready.

The players died. We tried it twice with similar results. The second fight lasted longer because of protection from energy, but the end was the same.

It was just too hard for the players to make saves against him. And stoneskin and fire shield meant that the players were relying on spells like silence and magic missile.

Regards,
Monty

P.S. I summarized the fight below if anyone is interested.

Round 1:Villain's 22 Dex wins initiative and he flies 20' straight up and casts scorching ray killing the wizard.

Stoneskin makes the party's arrows useless. The sorcerer makes his Will save against the cleric's silence.

Round 2: The sorcerer flies another 20' up and casts fireball (DC 19). Everyone fails, but survives.

Round 3: The arrows still can't beat the sorcerer's stoneskin. The cleric is killed by scorching ray before he can cure moderate wounds on the wounded rogue.

Round 4: Rinse and repeat. Everyone dies.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

That stoneskin spell can get very expensive. Is this guy rich?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

That stoneskin spell can get very expensive. Is this guy rich?

The guy's 8th-level. Even an NPC is going to have no problem coming up with the 250gp for Stoneskin.

I am going to take this opportunity to pass on some advice I got on these very boards a few months ago. When you're challenging low-level encounters, it's almost always better to give them several low-level foes as a challenge, rather than one much higher-level opponent. At least until mid-levels, using a higher-level foe means setting the PCs up against abilities they aren't equipped to deal with. Flight, Dimension Door, etc. etc.

Your best bet is to either power this guy down a notch (you can always power him back up the next time the PCs meet with him), or give him a lieutenant. That way the lieutenant can fight the PCs, while the big baddie uses Dimension Door immediately to take care of other, more pressing business.

 

[Monty]

I am going to take this opportunity to pass on some advice I got on these very boards a few months ago. When you're challenging low-level encounters, it's almost always better to give them several low-level foes as a challenge, rather than one much higher-level opponent. At least until mid-levels, using a higher-level foe means setting the PCs up against abilities they aren't equipped to deal with. Flight, Dimension Door, etc. etc.

I know that this opinion is unsolicited and I'm not trying to change this thread into a "How to be a Better DM" discussion. But Lord Pendragon's comment makes me want to add something that I thought when I read this post originally.

I rarely min/max my villains. First, I don't want to spend the time it takes to put one together (even for a recurring baddie). Second, I don't think it's fair to the PCs to face a foe tailor-made to fight them.

This villain feels like it was designed specifically to exploit the weaknesses of the PCs, not designed with goals of its own. All of the spells and skills are 100% chosen fight and harry the party. No dispel magic or invisibility or glitterdust or even basic divinations.

Monster summoning iii feels like its there because you knew the players were 4th-level, not because this NPC likes to summon monsters. If the players were 8th-level, like the NPC, you probably would have changed that spell.

Player characters grow organically - they don't just spring into being at 8th level. If you decide to min/max a villain, then at least build him the way a player would - concentrating on making the villain viable at earlier levels as well the level you created him. Otherwise the NPC will actually be tougher than his CR indicates. This might mean a wasted feat or some odd skill selections, but you'll sleep better at night.

Good luck and let us know how the party fares against him.

Regards,
Monty

 

[AuraSeer]

As the other posters have said, you're looking at a TPK with this guy. Even you dropped a few of his sorcerer levels, he could easily take a 3rd-level party to the cleaners.

A party below 5th level can't even cast dispel magic yet, so they'll be particularly weak against mages with any defensive spells. Considering that the villain can fly, a simple protection from arrows could ruin your PCs' whole day.

 

[Sanackranib]

you could always drastically reduce his level to put him more on par with the pc's but IMO your best option if you are set on using this BBEG is to keep him in the wings pulling the strings as it were. not only is this more in line with his heritage but its so much more satisfing as a player when you realize who the "criminal mastermind" is and then quest to take him out.

 

[Darklone]

I tried a similar sorcerer at level 6 without template against a lvl4 group. In the case where he ambushed them at the campfire, he moved a little bit back and fired a fireball. First round: Another fireball. Finally players made their spot checks to find him...

Even in the battle where he had a puny lvl3 warrior as bodyguard and both parties were not prepared, he nearly won and killed half of the party. One level more and he would have had fly and his Scorching Ray would have been lots deadlier.

 

[Wraithdrit]

There is no reason you could not use this guy from day one, with a party of 1st level adventurers. Not every reoccuring villain is a homicidal maniac that kills all adventurers on sight.

Have the party bust in on him when he is resting after a big fight (and low on spells). He has to grab for a scroll of teleport after dropping a summon monster spell to keep them busy (one of the few he has not already cast that day).

I get so tired of the arguement that an NPC is unbeatable because of XYZ tactic. Make your NPC organic, give him real reasons to be doing what he is doing. The BEST villain I have ever used travelled with the party more often than not. She had it out for the party but was not a cold bloody methodical killer.

Bottom line, if you like this villain use it. If the party REALLY scres the pooch and goes full guns blazing looking for a fight, well, maybe they should get a lesson in scouting, tactics, and knowing when the hell NOT to fight.

 

[jarlaxlecq]

There is no reason you could not use this guy from day one, with a party of 1st level adventurers. Not every reoccuring villain is a homicidal maniac that kills all adventurers on sight.

Have the party bust in on him when he is resting after a big fight (and low on spells). He has to grab for a scroll of teleport after dropping a summon monster spell to keep them busy (one of the few he has not already cast that day).

I get so tired of the arguement that an NPC is unbeatable because of XYZ tactic. Make your NPC organic, give him real reasons to be doing what he is doing. The BEST villain I have ever used travelled with the party more often than not. She had it out for the party but was not a cold bloody methodical killer.

Bottom line, if you like this villain use it. If the party REALLY scres the pooch and goes full guns blazing looking for a fight, well, maybe they should get a lesson in scouting, tactics, and knowing when the hell NOT to fight.

what i have planned for this initial part of this adventure is to give the party different options depending on how well they play, what they chose.

The main premise is that an artifact has been stolen by some thieves (the Tieflings). As they hunt down the theives in some old abandoned drwarven tunnels its up to the Party to catch the two before they make the handoff to the Fey'ri. Depends on if the party has a good spot, listen skill or maybe track. If they manage to defeat those two they'll fight their way out of the tunnels and then decide to give back the artifact or keep it. If they keep it both the church AND the Fay'ri well be after their heads. Assuming they don't catch the theiflings then they meet the Fey'ri. If the party isn;t to high and mighty (cleric of a good god, paladin etc) he'll offer them a chance to work for him. to act as his agents why the fey'ri establish themselves in the Silver Marches, otherwise its a fight. it'll be up to the PCs if they fight or run away.

what do you guys think of those options? i don't want ot be heavy handed with the PCs in terms of advancing the story, i want to be able to give them choices and take them down the road they choose.

 

[Krail Stromquism]

I always try to avoid to a direct route with missions and asskicking villains, which your Fey-ri is.

Go thru with the dungeon delve but have the party find evidence of the teifling thinking about a double cross or holding out for more money for the artifact. maybe give those LG characters a chance to parlay their way out of the big battle or at least a few battles.

After they exit, thats when the Fey-ri shows up, hits them with a FB, magic missles them, give him a bunch of hired 0 level warriors to rain arrows down on them, killing them isnt the point but messing them up is. Try and see if the party takes some teiflings prisoners. the Fey-ri will kill all of them but leave the party wounded and dying, and let his surviving hirlings take some of the parties loot.

Knowing PCs this'll piss them off, and they will want to hunt everyone down and get their loot back and a little vengence. This could lead to a long string of little adventures hunting down the hirlings one or two at a time and then when they are finally ready, they can meet up with the main man.

Any creature that can normally FLY, should be doing so anytime its encountered, especially in combat! As well as his "lair" should afford him this same advantage.

anyhow,

cool man! let us know how it all shapes up.