What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?

Hussar

Legend
The goal is to get past the guards into the noble's quarter. The approach is to draw upon the character's position of privilege to tell the guards he or she belongs here. I would have the guards ask the noble to see proof of the claim (if they aren't familiar with the PC), since anyone can claim to be noble, which the player may have in the form of a scroll of pedigree (noble starting equipment). If the scroll is produced, then the character is permitted entry (automatic success). If it is not produced, an ability check may follow depending on how the player has the character respond.

The challenge to the player is to get the character past the guards. The difficulty is made very low by applying the background feature and pedigree scroll.

But, there was no approach. Other than a decision I made at character generation. Aren't there two parts to your approach? Sure, there's a goal here, but, what's the approach? I'm not drawing on anything.

....

Y'know what? I just realized that I've been playing goal:approach all the way along. If all it takes for an approach is being able to point to a line on my character sheet, well, hell, the only real difference between my table and [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s is I tend to let the players call for rolls. And not even all the time. Sometimes I, as DM, call for rolls too. Wow, [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s goal:approach system is so broad and vague that EVERYONE is doing it.

Well done you sir, you've convinced me. Everyone who has ever sat down to play an RPG is using goal:approach methodology.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
But, there was no approach. Other than a decision I made at character generation. Aren't there two parts to your approach? Sure, there's a goal here, but, what's the approach? I'm not drawing on anything.

....

Y'know what? I just realized that I've been playing goal:approach all the way along. If all it takes for an approach is being able to point to a line on my character sheet, well, hell, the only real difference between my table and [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s is I tend to let the players call for rolls. And not even all the time. Sometimes I, as DM, call for rolls too. Wow, [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]'s goal:approach system is so broad and vague that EVERYONE is doing it.

Well done you sir, you've convinced me. Everyone who has ever sat down to play an RPG is using goal:approach methodology.

Not everyone, no. But the approach is as I demonstrated: To tell the guards the PC belongs there by virtue of his or her noble privilege (and possibly by showing the scroll of pedigree).
 

Hussar

Legend
Not everyone, no. But the approach is as I demonstrated: To tell the guards the PC belongs there by virtue of his or her noble privilege (and possibly by showing the scroll of pedigree).

Oh hey, I'm not arguing. I'm agreeing with you. Pointing to a line on my character sheet is totally different than saying, "I diplomatize the guard, 25". I totally see the difference now. It's night and day.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Oh hey, I'm not arguing. I'm agreeing with you. Pointing to a line on my character sheet is totally different than saying, "I diplomatize the guard, 25". I totally see the difference now. It's night and day.

I don't think you do. You use your talky-talky words like a big boy or girl and tell the DM what you're doing and what you're hoping to accomplish. Pointing to a line on your sheet isn't telling anyone anything. "I diplomatize the guard" is only 75% real words and lacks a clear approach or goal.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm not sure that a game that validates pemerton's proposed proposition actually exists, at least not in the form he suggests. Most games that have shared authorial control of the setting or backstory have some sort of rules framework that limits how much anyone other than the game moderator can introduce new setting or backstory elements. /snip

Again, this is a player who isn't playing an RPG, but is engaged in playing "make believe".

And, thus, the rallying cry for DM Empowerment. :D

Because, obviously, players cannot be trusted with authorial power else they will ruin the game. :D
 

Hussar

Legend
I don't think you do. You use your talky-talky words like a big boy or girl and tell the DM what you're doing and what you're hoping to accomplish. Pointing to a line on your sheet isn't telling anyone anything. "I diplomatize the guard" is only 75% real words and lacks a clear approach or goal.

Oh, right, I have to point to my character sheet while saying the words, "I have the noble background. I have a letter proving it."

Like I said, I've been running goal:method all the way along. It's surprisingly easy to follow this method. Excellent. I like it when we all agree.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Well done you sir, you've convinced me. Everyone who has ever sat down to play an RPG is using goal:approach methodology.
It's as much description as prescription. If there's not both a goal & an approach at least implied, the GM may well feel the need to ask for some clarification, anyway. Though sometimes a GM can also just insert the missing detail, narrating not only what the PC does, but how he did it (approach), for instance. I've seen GMs do that back in the day, especially when much more familiar with the game or setting than the players - I've also seen players freak at the GM 'taking over their characters.'
 

Celebrim

Legend
And, thus, the rallying cry for DM Empowerment. :D

Because, obviously, players cannot be trusted with authorial power else they will ruin the game. :D

No one can be trusted with authorial power else they will ruin the game.

The GM is assumed to maintain some degree of neutrality since, lacking an avatar in the world, they have no stake in the outcome and are not competing with the players. But if the GM places an avatar of themselves in the game, or takes a stake in it's outcome, or starts competing with the players then very quickly that becomes dysfunctional.

You make the assumption that players shouldn't be allowed to take authorial power else they will ruin the GM's game. But it's not the GM's game that is at stake, but the players. Not only can players not be trusted with authorial power, but if they have no mechanism for sharing this power fairly, then they'll ruin each others game. Moreover, if they use their authorial power to introduce and resolve problems, they become someone that is telling themselves a story, which is surely the least interesting thing that you can do in all of story-telling.

And I say that as a player. If I'm tasked with both setting the obstacles and resolving them, or if I have authorial power to overcome obstacles by fiat, then it is boring. *yawn*
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'm not sure that a game that validates pemerton's proposed proposition actually exists, at least not in the form he suggests. Most games that have shared authorial control of the setting or backstory have some sort of rules framework that limits how much anyone other than the game moderator can introduce new setting or backstory elements. Typically these games grant players one or more variously described 'tokens' which must be spent (either put back in a pot or given to another participant) if you as a player are going to introduce new setting or backstory elements in author stance, and typically the other game participants can bid their own tokens to overrule the newly asserted element. No RPG I'm aware of allows as much arbitrary unlimited authorial control as pemerton's example of "Francis the Guard".

pemerton's hypothetical game where author insertions were valid player propositions at all times, would very likely cease to be an RPG and revert to a game of make-believe, as it would quickly degenerate toward the problem of no authorial control that RPGs were trying to solve with shared games of make-believe.

In other words, you might as well be playing "Cowboys & Indians" or "Cops & Robbers" where you have no mechanism for handling the mutually contradictory assertions, "I shot you!" and "No, you missed!"

If the player can propose on the fly a background that establishes or even overturns who a particular NPC is - whose to say that "Francis" doesn't already have a name and a stat block - what stops the following propositions from being valid:

a) "I notice that some has accidently dropped a wand of lightning bolts in the ditch!"
b) "My coming to this town fulfills a long awaited prophesy, and the inhabitants great me as their king, carry me on their shoulders, and shower me with gifts."
c) "When I was a youth, the goddess of death fell in love with me. As such, whomever I hate, she hates, and I am incapable of dying."
d) "Although I am a simple seeming rogue, for many years I was a secret student of the Grand College of the Archmagi, where I was a favored pupil that absorbed all that could be taught by the ancient masters. Now, recalling my long training and my great success their, I cast Polymorph Other to turn the dragon into a toad."
e) "My father was a master swordsmith so I pull out my +5 holy avenger which he gave to me as an heirloom."

Games of make believe can be fun, but they are not RPGs.

The fundamental problem that underlies this turn of discussion is that the truth of a backstory is expressed by and validated by the player's mechanical abilities. Backstory cannot be used to conjure abilities or resources out of thin air. You cannot assert new wealth, patrons, titles, rank, knowledge, allies or really any other sort of advantage on the basis of backstory. Backstory proceeds from and justifies the choices taken in character creation. You don't get to bypass character generation or other rules of the game just because backstory, nor can you reasonably introduce backstory to the game without consulting the rules (if the game allows for the possibility of found allies or resources, for example something like Mouseguard does with a Circles test) and the DM (as even with a circles test, the DM decides the obstacle to overcome). It's perfectly possible to create a backstory which cannot be expressed by character generation, but that doesn't mean that character generation is wrong and that you get all the resources you want simply because you wrote them down. Again, this is a player who isn't playing an RPG, but is engaged in playing "make believe".

Actually, there are a number of RPGs that this kind of declaration is possible in, without the use of plot point tokens. The GM can either say yes, or challenge the assertion by asking for a roll. Usually, these games have tiered results, with success, success with complication, and failure as usual outcomes. On a success, the GM is obligated to acknowledge the success and adhere to it. On a success with complication, the GM is obligated to acknowledge the play, but to introduce a complication to the scene. On a failure, the GM is supposed to thwart the intent.

In this case, a success would mean the guard recognizes her friend and lets them into the town. On success with a cost, the guard may recognize them, but not necessarily let them end, requiring something else to achieve the goal of gaining entry. On a failure, the guard may recognize the PC, but have a very different recollection of the friendship, or have a much greater loyalty and refuse entry, or some other bad consequence.

The mechanics of these games are pretty heavily weighted so that success with a complication is the likely result of a check, with small bonuses to things the PC is skilled at. Fail forward is also the default assumption o play.
 

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