What does On The Ground mean to you?

[irdeggman]

IMO, if that's what the authors meant, they should have said "you must have a direct channel to earth or stone" not "you must be on the ground". You can't expect to use commonly used general terms to mean something specific in a certain context if you don't explicitly call it out somewhere.

IIRC, there are places in Races of Stone where they make that distinction. I don't have Bo9S, but nobody has given any rules text to imply they did it there.

Which is what I was thinking. That is you were responding to references but not th what the text said.

From Bo9S

“The Stone Dragon discipline focuses on strength, power, and toughness. Its teachings grant a martial adept the ability to splinter steel with a single, focused blow. Stone Dragon’s defensive abilities focus on tapping into the enduring power of stone to turn aside attacks. This discipline’s favored weapons are the greatsword, greataxe, heavy mace, and unarmed strike. Its key skill is balance.

Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force – the power of the earth and stone – to help power their maneuvers. As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground.”


From Races of Stone:

“Earthen Spell Power (Ex): A dwarf cleric who takes the 8th level racial substitution level draws power from the earth when casting certain spells. When she is in contact with the ground, the cleric’s effective caster level when casting spells with the Earth descriptor (or any spell from the Earth domain, such as stoneskin) increases by one.”


“Arcane Earthbond (Su): A dwarf sorcerer who takes the 1st level racial substitution level can draw power and support from an arcane bond he forges with the earth. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magic materials that cost 100 gp.

The arcane earthbond ability grants a dwarf sorcerer the Alertness feat whenever he is in contact with the ground. He also enjoys damage reduction 1/adamantine when in contact with the ground”

“Power of Stone (Su): A dwarf sorcerer who takes the 5th level racial substitution level learns to channel his spell power through the earth. As long as both he and his target are touching the ground, the range of any spell he casts that targets or affects that creature or object is increased by 50%, and the save DC for the spell increases by 1. If the spell targets multiple creatures or objects, all the targets must be touching the ground for the sorcerer to gain the benefits of this ability.”

“Earth Meditation (Ex): A dwarf sorcerer who takes the 9th-level racial substitution level learns to focus his meditations on the quiet power of the earth beneath him. If the dwarf sorcerer spends his 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of concentration to prepare spells while in contact with the ground, he can add his Constitution bonus (if any) to his Charisma score to determine his bonus sorcerer spell slots.”

I just have a difficult time when reading the entire applicable text (including the surround text) that the didn not mean in contact with earth or stone, especially when the Bo9S information is so close to that in RoS.

 

[Hammer_of_Tyr]

Irdeggman, I hear what you are saying, and when taking that one paragraph and putting it up against the RoS paragraphs it would seem that that you are correct. But when put up against the rest of Bo9S it doesn't really make that much sense at all. Stone dragon isn't THAT much more powerful than say Tiger claw, which has maneuvers like Rabid Wolf Strike and Claw at the Moon, at second level both which do nifty extra damage. None of the other Disciplines have any such restrictions.

If WoTC wanted it to be a restriction (And one as severe as your making it) don't you think they would have spelled it out in more detail? There is no mention of it on P42 in the Stone Dragon description. As a matter of fact the only mention of this I can find is on page 81 and there's only ONE SENTENCE, "As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground.” Don't you think such a severe restriction would be mentioned elsewhere? Or maybe even warrant a sidebar?

Anyway It's moot point DMJeff has ruled it's the same as Dwarven Stability, It means I can't use the maneuvers while, Riding, Flying Falling swimming or weightless.

-HoT

 

[Slaved]

I shall name all of my mounts from now on The Ground.

 

[irdeggman]

Irdeggman, I hear what you are saying, and when taking that one paragraph and putting it up against the RoS paragraphs it would seem that that you are correct. But when put up against the rest of Bo9S it doesn't really make that much sense at all. Stone dragon isn't THAT much more powerful than say Tiger claw, which has maneuvers like Rabid Wolf Strike and Claw at the Moon, at second level both which do nifty extra damage. None of the other Disciplines have any such restrictions.

If WoTC wanted it to be a restriction (And one as severe as your making it) don't you think they would have spelled it out in more detail? There is no mention of it on P42 in the Stone Dragon description. As a matter of fact the only mention of this I can find is on page 81 and there's only ONE SENTENCE, "As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground.” Don't you think such a severe restriction would be mentioned elsewhere? Or maybe even warrant a sidebar?

Anyway It's moot point DMJeff has ruled it's the same as Dwarven Stability, It means I can't use the maneuvers while, Riding, Flying Falling swimming or weightless.

-HoT

IMO the flaw here is not in what the rules say it is in stating that "Stone Dragon powers aren't that powerful" or that "there should be more information if it was that important".

These, to me, are attempts at justifying a desired reading of the rules and not an attempt at justifying (or rationailzing) what the rules say.

I have attempted to justify what the rules say by comparison to other "similar" sources and putting things together


As for how much text is applied to a specific restriction, the following don't contain side bars or essentially any more text when it comes to "such a serious restriction" either:

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).


Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).

Ex-Bards
A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.


Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.




Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).

Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. This choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way.
If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Only the paladin has more detail for its unique restrictions as in there is an entire paragraph describing the paladin's code of conduct.


Now as far as continuity of a game goes it is up to the DM (and player) to agree to abide by a set interpretation (like the one your DM has done) - whether or not it is "strictly per the rules" or not.

 

[sedarfaery]

on the ground = prone?

 

[Zimri]

Do you think they word things like this just to make people debate what they really meant ?

 

[moritheil]

Do you think they word things like this just to make people debate what they really meant ?

If they do it on purpose, they do so to broaden the DMs powers, because interpretation lies with him (or her.)

 

[Zimri]

If they do it on purpose, they do so to broaden the DMs powers, because interpretation lies with him (or her.)

I think it's a conspiracy to raise the level of intellectual (pseudo or actual) discourse all around.

I also think "on the ground" means any solid unmoving surface (so a boat doesn't count but a tower etcetera does) But thats just my take on it. The manuevers themselves don't seem to require a more stringent definition, I would also accept carrying a vial of earth with you. Heck if it worked for captain britain why not Joe Barbarian.

 

[irdeggman]

Actually I think all the answeres will be contained on WotC new on-line version of Dragon, yeah that's the ticket.