D&D 4E What Doesn't 4E Do Well?

[Herschel]

Invokers and wizards are great classes with powerful dailies, but there is never a time where the party says "boy I wish we had a controller. We really need a controller." Every class has AoE and status effects so what do they do?

I play in a campaign without one and have said often how a controller would havce been very helpful. My Swordmage is the controller for the group.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I just re-organized my books the other day and noticed that I now have 20 hard back 4E books. 20! That's a huge number of RPG books. I don't think 1E or 2E put 20 books out total each. And this is just in 1.5 years. What will it be like 5 years from now, even it it all goes totally online or electronic??? It will probably be a massive amount of material that even many of the hard core gamers here on the forums will be totally swamped by, let alone their players.

I can't speak for 1e, but I actually wouldn't be all that surprised if 2e was the largest edition of D&D ever, in terms of number of books (as long as we disqualify all the 3rd party material for 3.x, which would probably put 3.x far in the lead).

You had the basic 3 (PHB, DMG, MM)
You had numerous additional MMs (don't know how many, but I have a Monster Manual Annual Volume 3, so I can say with certainty that there were at least three of them, certainly more)
You had all the Complete Class books (Complete Wizard, Complete Priest, Complete Psionics, Complete Druid, Complete Ninja, Complete Shaír's, etc.; we're easily looking at a minimum of 11 of these)
Then there were the Complete Race books (Complete Elf, Complete Book of Humanoids, etc.; at least 4 of those)
There were the books oriented towards DMs (Creative Campaigning, Complete Villains, Arms and Equipment; which makes 3 that I know of though there were almost certainly more)
The Campaign Sourcebooks (A Mighty Fortress is the only one I own, though there were definitely more)
The Options books (High Level Campaigns, Combat & Tactics, Skills & Powers, Spells and Magic; so at least 4)
Other books that weren't part of a "series" per se (Tome of Magic, Book of Artifacts, Encyclopedia Magica, Wilderness Survival Guide, etc.; so a minimum of 4 more)
Campaign Settings (FR, Dragonlance, Council of Wyrms, Planescape, Domains of Dread aka Ravenloft, Mystara, Dark Sun, etc., each of which had more than 4 sourcebooks such as: Monstrous Compendiums, Volo's Guides, Glantri, etc.; so easily more than 35 books there alone)

That's a total of 68 books, and I know I haven't covered everything that was put out for 2nd (heck, there are several from my own collection that I didn't bother to include, like Warriors of Heaven). I'd guess that 2e had easily over 100 different sourcebooks.

I'm not saying that 20 books in 2 years isn't a sizable amount. However, I seriously doubt that 4e will ever rival 2e in terms of number of books.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If you don't want to discuss this rationally and without insults, you don't need to post at all you know.

I didn't use any insults but the simplistic examples you are providing are very misleading and wrong. Discussing it would be no different than any other previous edition war, so what's the point? Basically, my point is that what I still infer from this inline side topic (from you and ForceUser) is that you feel that in 3.X magic items are not necessary. For that I say that without magic items, a fighter (e.g.) is completely useless. Not so in 4E. Maybe you really mean to imply that magic items are not as necessary and yet still I say hogwash. You can of course reply if you want, but I'll heed your advice and stay away from the bashers gathering here.

 

[korjik]

I didn't use any insults but the simplistic examples you are providing are very misleading and wrong. Discussing it would be no different than any other previous edition war, so what's the point? Basically, my point is that what I still infer from this inline side topic (from you and ForceUser) is that you feel that in 3.X magic items are not necessary. For that I say that without magic items, a fighter (e.g.) is completely useless. Not so in 4E. Maybe you really mean to imply that magic items are not as necessary and yet still I say hogwash. You can of course reply if you want, but I'll heed your advice and stay away from the bashers gathering here.

Did your DM have to tear the points off your ears?

 

[KarinsDad]

I didn't use any insults but the simplistic examples you are providing are very misleading and wrong. Discussing it would be no different than any other previous edition war, so what's the point? Basically, my point is that what I still infer from this inline side topic (from you and ForceUser) is that you feel that in 3.X magic items are not necessary. For that I say that without magic items, a fighter (e.g.) is completely useless. Not so in 4E. Maybe you really mean to imply that magic items are not as necessary and yet still I say hogwash.

I did not state that they were not necessary. That is your inference from what was posted.

It is easy to see though that spells like Mage Armor and Bear's Endurance could take the place of many necessary magic items in 3E.

No such spells exist in 4E. That's a fact. Close your eyes and go "la la la la" all you want, but spells could take the place of many necessary items in 3E. And that is one reason that magic items did not have to be handed out like candy as much in 3E. Sure the items existed, but that does not mean that all DMs were forced by the game system to hand them out.

And yes, a Fighter is as useless in 4E as he was in 3E at higher levels without his magic items. One difference is that in 3E, Antimagic Field did force the player of the Fighter to not have his items on occasion and in 4E, that never happens. Another difference is that any weapon could be picked up and the Cleric could cast Greater Magic Weapon off a scroll on it (ditto with Magic Vestment and armors/shields) and the 3E Fighter was good to go.

Since that spell no longer exists, the higher level 4E fighter HAS to have his magic items or he will be crying in the corner.

Your POV on this aspect of the discussion is inaccurate.

I'd sooner believe you if you told me your cat poops adamantium nuggets.

You can of course reply if you want, but I'll heed your advice and stay away from the bashers gathering here.

Cool.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Since that spell no longer exists, the higher level 4E fighter HAS to have his magic items or he will be crying in the corner.

Not quite.

By combining the rules on page 138 of the DMG2 (Alternate Rewards) and page 139 of the DMG2 (Boons), you really can have an entire epic level party with zero magic items and they won't be any weaker than the same party with a full complement of magic gear. It's even CB compatible.

Even if you only apply the inherent bonuses from page 138 (and distribute zero magic items) the party will still only be marginally weaker than your typical party, because aside from the requisite +x bonus, magic items make up a far smaller portion of your total power than in previous editions.

You might not like the power reduction of magic items in 4e, and that's a fair opinion to hold (I prefer it myself, but that's neither here nor there). However, IMO, it's pretty clear that 4e is the least reliant on magic items (because they can easily be replaced using just two official, albeit optional, rules).

 

[Saeviomagy]

Luckily, neither RPers nor those new to the game will have to, since you only have to juggle them when you're level 30. Compare this to an epic character in 3e, please!

Potentially you can produce an epic character that just has to say "I attack" 4 times per round.

The main thing is that you start playing. The player says "I hit the rat". You immediately have to ask "with which power?" and you're straight off delving into the mechanics of the system. I mean sure, you COULD just assume they mean a basic attack, but that's only going to work for so long before the player is being mechanically penalised.

In 3e or prior edition, they say that they hit the rat, and you can assume they hit it with whatever weapon they have on hand, and most of the time that's going to be fine.

 

[Zaran]

Did your DM have to tear the points off your ears?

I wonder how many get this joke.


1. Lack of world building info. As a GM I have to go to my 3.5 books to get info like "What kind of creatures can be found in a swamp? or How much does a mule cost? " They need to put a book that gives GMs tools to detail out their campaign worlds. Like how big does a city have to be to sustain a thieves guild? How much gold does it take to build a bar or a castle."

2. The lack of the online gaming table.

3. Two Primary attribute classes like clerics or paladins. You only get half the available choices in powers.

4. Lack of playtesting the original PHB. It needs a rewrite to reflect the lessons learned. MM as well. And make sure you put the mule in!

 

[Eric888]

I probably wouldnt have come back to playing D&D if
"I hit it with my sword" repeated ad infinitum was a
good and supported option --- snooze.

No one is asking you to play one. Just because you don't want to play an easy class does not meen they shouldn't exist in the game. What kind of character you personally enjoy is not the basis of the entire game for everyone else.

 

[Jhaelen]

4E did combine some of the 3E slot items, but then they turned around and combined the powers of multiple 3E items into one 4E item.

As an example, in 3E a Cloak of Elvenkind gave a +5 bonus to Hide checks.

A 4E Elven Cloak gives a +2 to +6 to Fort, Reflex, and Will along with a +2 to +6 bonus to Stealth checks.

The item is a lot more powerful than its 3E counterpart. It gives bonuses to 3 defenses (the equivalent of 3 saves in 3E) and a skill. There might be fewer 4E item slots, but many of the items are more powerful and hence are required in the game system. I won't even go into the weak NAD discussion that even with the item, the PC is totally screwed.

And, the player of 3E had to decide if he wanted the Amulet of Health, or an Amulet of Natural Armor. In 4E, every PC tends to get all of the basics. You don't see 20th level 4E Wizards without a +4 or better implement. That had no need for such an item in 3E. Fighters needed such bonus offensive items, but Wizards did not.

I call bull.

First: 4e has fewer slots than 3e. In 3e every character needed about five magic items to meet the expected power level in 4e it's three items. For a low-magic setting neither edition would have an advantage in that regard if it wasn't for 4e's DMG2 option of using inherent bonused.

Second: Your example of the Cloak of Elvenkind is intentionally misleading. What did a 3e player do if he wanted to have a bonus to hide checks and all three saving throws?
He used a vest of resistance (torso slot - which no longer exists in 4e) and a cloak of elvenkind.

Or even better: He visited the enchanter of his choice and paid him to add the saving throw bonuses to his cloak of elven-kind (which using the MIC rules isn't even more expensive than both items separately).
Incidentally that's also the solution to the 'hard choice' regarding the throat slot: Just have someone enchant your amulet of natural armor to also grant a con bonus. Again: this does not even increase cost!

Saying that 4e magic items are more powerful than 3e magic items is plain wrong. I don't think there's a single example where a 4e item is better than its 3e equivalent. There's also tons of 3e magic items that don't exist in 4e because they would be the equivalent of 4e artifacts.

In 3e magic users may not need +x implements, but they tried to get metamagic rods as soon as they were affordable. Other items were highly sought after by spellcasters: Ways to avoid attacks of opportunity, make concentration checks, etc.

In 3e you also had to be prepared to counter a lot more effects than in 4e. Remember the golf bag of weapons? Everyone needed to have ways to deal with grappling monsters and the more numerous conditions. This made up a significant portion of a spell caster's repertoire. If you didn't prepare to deal with certain effects you were _hosed_:
paralysis, attribute drain, level drain, long time stuns, etc.

In conclusion: Regarding the requirement for magic items 4e doesn't do it less well than 3e. It's either slightly better or _a lot_ 'better' (if you're using the DMG2 inherent bonuses).

There definitely _are_ things that 4e doesn't do well (and I think they've already all been mentioned in this thread) but this is not one of them.