D&D 5E What Don't You Like About Dungeons?

[iserith]

I've never struggled with this, but we all have different experiences with the game.

I've not struggled with it either, but that's chiefly because I don't make it my business to judge why a character does a thing. As DM, I only need to know what they are trying to accomplish and how so I can decide whether it succeeds or fails or there's a roll. As a player, I only need to know if I can do something to help my teammate succeed in their goal.

 

[R_J_K75]

The tricky bit here is that particular knowledge isn't really necessary to take action, and the DM is only tasked with adjudicating action, so we really can't sit in judgment of what a character "wouldn't" or "shouldn't" know. It's really more like "might" or "could" know anyway since anything can be fictionally justified up to and including "Bruenor just felt like doing that, okay?" That may not be as satisfying as justifying it with Bruenor's extensive and ponderous backstory, but it is what it is, and is in my view no more inherent to dungeons than other venues.

I think @Incenjucar gave a pretty good example of what I'd consider meta-gaming. But I think its also fair to say that in some cases a players character may or could know some obscure bit of information of the game world but in some cases theres just no way that a character would have that knowledge. I suppose it comes down to the DM and what they deem appropriate. I cant remember any specific incidents but I do try and give the players the benefit of the doubt but other times I have succinctly told my players, outright NO, there is no way your character would have that kind of information.

 

[Incenjucar]

I've not struggled with it either, but that's chiefly because I don't make it my business to judge why a character does a thing. As DM, I only need to know what they are trying to accomplish and how so I can decide whether it succeeds or fails or there's a roll. As a player, I only need to know if I can do something to help my teammate succeed in their goal.

As a DM, I establish the ground rules that players will keep their meta knowledge as far from the game as they are able to do, and they comply. It's worked extremely well. My players will even do knowledge checks to see if they know about fire/acid vs. trolls.

 

[iserith]

I think @Incenjucar gave a pretty good example of what I'd consider meta-gaming. But I think its also fair to say that in some cases a players character may or could know some obscure bit of information of the game world but in some cases theres just no way that a character would have that knowledge. I suppose it comes down to the DM and what they deem appropriate. I cant remember any specific incidents but I do try and give the players the benefit of the doubt but other times I have succinctly told my players, outright NO, there is no way your character would have that kind of information.

As a DM, I establish the ground rules that players will keep their meta knowledge as far from the game as they are able to do, and they comply. It's worked extremely well. My players will even do knowledge checks to see if they know about fire/acid vs. trolls.

Everyone will handle this differently. I can't be given to care about why someone makes particular decisions for their characters. If they want to limit themselves based on establishing some kind of baseline of knowledge, that's fine. Or not, also fine. What was seemingly asserted, however, was that it's more apt to come up in dungeon environments, perhaps as a reason to avoid them as adventure locations. My question is why.

 

[Maxperson]

I like dungeons a lot, but true dungeon crawls only once in a while. Dungeons are fun if they are smallish and around 5-15 rooms. That allows you to enjoy the dungeon feel for a bit, but it doesn't slog on and get monotonous.

 

[Incenjucar]

Everyone will handle this differently. I can't be given to care about why someone makes particular decisions for their characters. If they want to limit themselves based on establishing some kind of baseline of knowledge, that's fine. Or not, also fine. What was seemingly asserted, however, was that it's more apt to come up in dungeon environments, perhaps as a reason to avoid them as adventure locations. My question is why.

It's a result of the tradition of insta-kill death trap dungeons like the Tomb of Annihilation. Less common in modern times, but back in older editions players wouldn't even bother making back stories for their characters because official adventures would pile up the bodies too quickly to risk growing attached to them. It really put the "crawl" into dungeon crawl.
Edit: Not to mention the sheer number of monsters disguised as the environment from all directions. When the walls, ceiling, floor, treasure, and air could all be monsters at the same time, players poke everything with an eleven foot pole.

 

[iserith]

It's a result of the tradition of insta-kill death trap dungeons like the Tomb of Annihilation. Less common in modern times, but back in older editions players wouldn't even bother making back stories for their characters because official adventures would pile up the bodies too quickly to risk growing attached to them. It really put the "crawl" into dungeon crawl.
Edit: Not to mention the sheer number of monsters disguised as the environment from all directions. When the walls, ceiling, floor, treasure, and air could all be monsters at the same time, players poke everything with an eleven foot pole.

I don't make "insta-kill death trap dungeons" and I still don't encourage players to create backstories for their characters before play. I prefer they do only as much as is necessary to define their concept, then add to it when inspired to do so during play.

Also, I can imagine a situation in which adventurers are exploring such an alien and dangerous environment very carefully with or without knowledge of things like mimics or piercers.

 

[Incenjucar]

I don't make "insta-kill death trap dungeons" and I still don't encourage players to create backstories for their characters before play. I prefer they do only as much as is necessary to define their concept, then add to it when inspired to do so during play.

Also, I can imagine a situation in which adventurers are exploring such an alien and dangerous environment very carefully with or without knowledge of things like mimics or piercers.

That's fine, but unless you worked for TSR your dungeons aren't where this came from.

 

[Minigiant]

What I don't like is after a certain point and size, a dungeon doesn't work the walk D&D sets them up as unless the inhabitants are of above average intelligence and have a lot of unused resources at their exposal. So you either end up with monsters who don't drain resources like they are supposed to OR engage the same tactics.

Basically once you dungeon has more than 2 floor, you have to go into WH40K Necromunda Hive City Gang Warfare mode in other to give the dungeon the variety of enemy resources, and tactics.

 

[iserith]

That's fine, but unless you worked for TSR your dungeons aren't where this came from.

My point being I still don't think this is "meta play." It's not a default position that one should create a backstory beyond what the rules describe, nor be attached to the character, nor is carefully exploring necessarily "meta play." It's just play, and reasonable play in a dangerous environment, wouldn't you say? What does it matter if said careful exploration is the result of a player having had a previous experience with a mimic or a piercer? The outcome is the same - careful exploration.

 

[Incenjucar]

My point being I still don't think this is "meta play." It's not a default position that one should create a backstory beyond what the rules describe, nor be attached to the character, nor is carefully exploring necessarily "meta play." It's just play, and reasonable play in a dangerous environment, wouldn't you say? What does it matter if said careful exploration is the result of a player having had a previous experience with a mimic or a piercer? The outcome is the same - careful exploration.

And that slogs things down and makes dungeons less fun for me. I'll take cinematic action over examining the door for paint discoloration on the bottom to see if the room floods any day.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I believe it's nobody's business but the player of that character.

we have done this dance before... play how you like but I will not let someone "just happen on" what they know out of game. Sorry but You will not enjoy my games and I don't want to play in yours.

If they do or don't want to do that, it's not my concern. But anyway the assertion is that this happens more in dungeons than elsewhere, and I disagree. There's nothing about dungeons that makes this more prevalent in my view.

I would say the style of play of dungeons lends itself to it more... but you can totally see it in or out of the dungeon.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

As a DM, I establish the ground rules that players will keep their meta knowledge as far from the game as they are able to do, and they comply. It's worked extremely well. My players will even do knowledge checks to see if they know about fire/acid vs. trolls.

thats what we do... sometimes we call for rolls sometimes we call BS... but 98% of the time we just don't do it.

 

[Incenjucar]

You can certainly have death traps in narrow alleys and canyons rather than in dungeons, it's just the patterns associated with different milieus.

 

[Emberashh]

Ive been playing fancy adventures in RPGs for years.

The idea of just crawling through a vaguely cobblestone Doom-esque hallway is like a breath of fresh air.

Theres an aesthetic to that kind of a dungeon you just don't get in your various Morias and Bandit caves.

 

[iserith]

And that slogs things down and makes dungeons less fun for me. I'll take cinematic action over examining the door for paint discoloration on the bottom to see if the room floods any day.

Careful exploration doesn't necessarily take a lot of time or need to be a slog either. I'm running a dungeon now that involves careful exploration, social interaction, high stakes, drama, and character development. I would bet that group sees more action in 3 hours than many see in several sessions.

 

[Incenjucar]

Careful exploration doesn't necessarily take a lot of time or need to be a slog either. I'm running a dungeon now that involves careful exploration, social interaction, high stakes, drama, and character development. I would bet that group sees more action in 3 hours than many see in several sessions.

Cool! Sadly not a universal experience. D&D has decades of stories of ten-foot poles and sending fighters and other disposable minions and hirelings toward danger to soak up the death traps.

 

[iserith]

Cool! Sadly not a universal experience. D&D has decades of stories of ten-foot poles and sending fighters and other disposable minions and hirelings toward danger to soak up the death traps.

Sure, that was the expectation of those editions of the game. The adventuring party was much bigger than what we see nowadays, so some of the people were expendable. Having them die in hilariously complicated ways was part of the fun.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

You can't find a toilet when you need one.

I have been known for decades in my gaming circles for including fully usable toilet facilities (with different design and maybe a quest in itself for how to actually use it without public embarasment) in every single adventurable locale I create, be it a palace in The City of Brass or the Dungeon of the Ooze Overlord. If you gotta go you gotta go.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So you've decided to play this game called Dungeons & Dragons. But, perhaps after some experience with the game, you've decided you don't like dungeons. I feel like I see this a lot in various online discussions and I find it unusual to take a stance against the very thing the game was seemingly designed around and still continue playing it.

While the game can feature adventure locations and situations that aren't or don't involve dungeons, what is it specifically about dungeons that you don't like? When you hear that it's time for a "dungeon crawl," what sort of negative things does that conjure in your mind? If you're a DM, why do you avoid running dungeons in your own games?

To start off: it's not that I don't like dungeons at all, but rather that I find a fixation upon them dull, for exactly the same reason that if 75% of the enemies you fight were dragons, it would get dull (and I adore dragons.) Dungeons are a part of this balanced breakfast most good campaigns, but they sour quickly if over-used. With that caveat in mind...

I don't like that a lot of dungeons make zero sense if you stop to think about them for even a few minutes. Why is there the guts of an old castle in the middle of nowhere, full of relatively easily-stolen valuables, and a bunch of monsters that wouldn't actually benefit from trying to live there? The MST3k mantra is all well and good, but I want either a strong narrative and/or naturalistic reason why a thing is the way it is.* I can suspend my disbelief once or twice, but after a while those nagging doubts refuse to be ignored. When I hear that something is a "dungeon crawl," that tells me in advance that these sorts of doubts are likely to crop up--and that I'm likely to be given the MST3k mantra ("just repeat to yourself, it's just a game, you should really just relax") if I mention them.

Beyond that, though, dungeons are pretty limited, conceptually. You have actual literal dungeons, crypts/burial sites. Maybe a lost, ruined city now and then. But in general, when someone says "dungeon crawl," they mean an adventure which will:

• be primarily underground
• feature mostly things constructed by people (or something sufficiently people-like)
• have lots of long,. tight corridors, often filled with a pretty standard set of traps (pits, Indiana Jones-style buzzsaws, poison darts, crushing rooms, etc.)
• not really have much significance beyond the murderhole-heist itself
• be populated with mindless dungeon things (e.g. gelatinous cubes) or poorly-explained Always Evil soldier-types
• be formally or at least effectively linear (that is, you can explore where you like, but a fixed sequence of actions is required to get to the end)
• require a potentially-quite-tedious "how do we get the loot OUT" challenge at the end

There's essentially no room for intrigue, long-term narrative is rare at best, "exploration" feels confined by the nature of the typical dungeon environment, and it generally feels just a bit...well, canned. Instant adventure, just add characters.

If you do like dungeons (or at least like them as much as other adventure locations), what do you like about them? How do you approach them as a player? If you're a DM, what kind of resources do you use to help you design and run them effectively?

Time to get positive! Really classic dungeon crawls make for a great palate-cleanser adventure. Something simple, no frills, just playing the game and being buds. Biggest challenge will be some kind of puzzle or logistical problem. And because a really classic dungeon crawl is a sort of blank canvas, it can have other outside themes painted on it relatively easily. It doesn't offer any richness itself, in much the same way that white rice doesn't offer any richness itself, but it can soak up some other thing's flavor. Of course, that puts a lot of emphasis on the metaphorical sauce, but there's a good reason rice is such a common foodstuff IRL.

(I'm making this a D&D 5e thread because that is the most recent and arguably popular version of the game. If you're going to talk about other editions or even other games, please say so explicitly so as to mitigate misunderstandings as to rules or the like.)

Personally I think these responses are edition-agnostic. If I were going to talk about any specific game, it would be 4e, 13A, or DW. Dungeon crawls tend to be more palatable in 4e/13A because (a) the fights themselves are a lot more interesting, (b) skill challenges give more structured and textured non-combat challenges, and (c) personal quests and other such things allow some intrusion, even in the otherwise "canned" space, of the deeper meaning/long-term stuff that are my true D&D love.

13A isn't quite as tactically rich, but it's pretty close, and it's got some other fun things like montages, and item quirks can make even a bland dungeon crawl more interesting as they add an extra layer of personality. Part of the fun with 13A is just that it leans really heavily into the high-flying action, so even a dungeon crawl should be a dramatic experience.

Finally, DW...well, because of how you're supposed to play it, a "dungeon crawl" is...well. I can't say you CAN'T have one (arguably, that's what my players did for their first adventure), but the nature of the rules makes it so the unknown remains tantalizingly close. "Draw maps, leave blanks," "Think offscreen too," and a bunch of other things...they all combine to ensure that no dungeon crawl ever goes quite the way you think it will. Even if you're the GM.

*As an example, I made an adventure location which was a lost city. That's not really a "dungeon" in the usual sense, but it was an abandoned ruin full of treasure to recover, so it's an approximate fit. I made sure there were answers for the naturalistic and narrative questions about the city. Why was it there? Natural geothermal caldera, city formed from the marriage of co-ruling efreet and marid noble genies. Why was it abandoned? The genie exodus to Jinnistan, long ago. Why was it lost? The desert sand covered up the external land entrance, so it just looked like any other mountain from the outside. Why was it found? The mysterious shifting winds of the past few years have revealed a lot of things previously hidden in the desert, including this. Etc.