What (else) got the shaft in 3E?

[Henry]

How an average 2.5' tall creature could have a str of 8 boggles my mind. I hate 3E halflings because they seem to just be a stack of stats with no rhyme or reason. I spit on halflings, Paateewyy!!

I disagree - the smaller a creature is, the better its ratio of muscle mass to size is. Ever wonder why halflings have a +2 to jump and climb? Because the reasoning is that with more muscle mass over a smaller area, they are stronger than a human of that corresponding size. Halflings may seem like human children, but from the PHB evidence, it is obvious that their physiology is very different. It is also obvious that a halfling could not exist in a nonmagical world - because its power ratio is closer to that of an insect than a mammal.

I played a halfling about two years ago that pulled a trick the DM at first did not like, but agreed when I explained it to him. My halfling LIFTED himself around a doorway, by his two arms, just by grabbing on to the side and lifting. My reasoning was that halflings obviously have a different physiology, because I could with my strength lift AT LEAST twice my own weight. With that much body strength, lifting my own self up by two hands was child's play. He had to concur.

 

[Storminator]

I played a halfling about two years ago that pulled a trick the DM at first did not like, but agreed when I explained it to him. My halfling LIFTED himself around a doorway, by his two arms, just by grabbing on to the side and lifting. My reasoning was that halflings obviously have a different physiology, because I could with my strength lift AT LEAST twice my own weight. With that much body strength, lifting my own self up by two hands was child's play. He had to concur.

Many guys on my high school football team could do that. It's not that extraordinary. I imagine that a good gymnast could do this as well.

PS

 

[Enkhidu]

I played a halfling about two years ago that pulled a trick the DM at first did not like, but agreed when I explained it to him. My halfling LIFTED himself around a doorway, by his two arms, just by grabbing on to the side and lifting. My reasoning was that halflings obviously have a different physiology, because I could with my strength lift AT LEAST twice my own weight. With that much body strength, lifting my own self up by two hands was child's play. He had to concur.

This little trick is something that actually does happen in the real world - ever see some of the exercises male gymnasts do? Of course, in that example, you're dealing with someone who has 130 to 150 pounds of weight, and most likely has the D&D equivelant of a 14 or 15 strength - just about the same lift to weight ratio a halfling with an 11 or 12 strength would have. Ergo, a halfling with any sort of strength bonus (at least in my mind) would look like a one of those guys who do the rings at the Olympics.

'Course you could just say that a halfling's muscles are just better than a humans, pound for pound...

[Edited: Dangit, Storminator beat me to it...]

 

[jgbrowning]

It is also obvious that a halfling could not exist in a nonmagical world - because its power ratio is closer to that of an insect than a mammal.

This always bother me. I wonder why the enlarged halfling, who does have a power ratio closer to an insect doesn't receive anymore bonuses than a race that has a more typical mammal ratio... ?

It's magic alright!

joe b.

 

[Xeriar]

I disagree - the smaller a creature is, the better its ratio of muscle mass to size is. Ever wonder why halflings have a +2 to jump and climb? Because the reasoning is that with more muscle mass over a smaller area, they are stronger than a human of that corresponding size. Halflings may seem like human children, but from the PHB evidence, it is obvious that their physiology is very different. It is also obvious that a halfling could not exist in a nonmagical world - because its power ratio is closer to that of an insect than a mammal.

A human reduced to an insect's size would probably still be more than a match for any one insect. The strongest of them can lift 100 times their own body weight, at that level that would corrospond to an average human.

Regardless, at half the height, they still have only a quarter of their original strength - a halfling should be, relatively, twice as strong, true, but they should have a str-4 rather (And only be able to carry half the weight for their strength).

 

[The Sigil]

Square-cube law, pure and simple.

Your strength increases/decreases in proportion to the cross-sectional area of your musculature - in other words, by (linear factor)^2, so if you suddenly double in height, you would quadruple (2^2) in strength.

Your mass increases/decreases in proportion to your volume - in other words, by factor^3 so that doubling in height makes your weight explode by a factor of 8.

Let's reverse it and apply to halfling.

6' Human weighing 200 lbs - let's say he can lift 160 lbs. (80% of his body weight)

When he becomes a 3' halfling (1/2 size), his weight is multiplied by 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2... or in other words, 200 lbs * 1/8 or 25 pounds.

His strength is reduced by a factor of 4 (1/2*1/2) so he can lift "only" 40 pounds... that's what, 160% of his body weight?

Have you ever noticed that LITTLE KIDS are very good at climbing door frames by puting their hands and feet spread out against door frames and such? It's because they're still on the "winning" side of the square/cube law. I could easily "climb" up door frames when I was 6 or 7 and did it regularly. These days, I would have a much tougher time (not to mention the fact that my increased height leaves me only a couple of inches to climb before hitting my head LOL). In the strictest sense, I am much stronger than I was at that age - I can lift more, my punches pack more power, and so forth... the problem is that my mass has increased faster than my strength.

Halflings should probably have a more considerable penalty to STR, but their weight is about double what it should be, so I guess the STR they receive is correct - it is relative to their weight.

BTW, shrink the 6' human down to the size of an ant (say, 1/10 inch) and his relative strength would let him lift "only" 576 times his own body weight. Ants are NOT strong creatures... which is why in the real world, an ant that "grew" up to 6 feet would collapse under the weight of its own body (sorry, "eight legged freaks" lovers).

--The Sigil

 

[Henry]

Thanks for the info, Sigil. Now I remember why I hated biology and physics so much back in college.

But my point does stand, that halflings as described would still be slightly beyond the bounds of real-world physics - but as described, a -4 to STR, and a 1/2 carry weight would be more accurate, but would SUCK to play.

As it is, Halflings and Gnomes still get pretty good ends of the stick - Even when playing fighters, and ESPECIALLY as spellcasters. Why be concerned with physical power, when you can throw balls of fire at people?

 

[jasper]

ARROWS!

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

I for one am doing that. My current character is a cleric/divine disciple of Velsharoon. I am an elf with an 18 dex who has weapon finesse with touch spells. It is very interesting how effective of a combat person you can be with that combination.

Not exactly what I had in mind... I was thinking more along the lines of an elemental cleric, or a priest of a non-war, death, or destruction oriented deity (other than Mystra). When was the last time you saw a cleric of Sune? How about Waukeen? Tymora? Yondalla? Garl Glittergold? Labelas Enorath? Chauntea? Eldath?

(And if I ever run another FR game, I'm never again allowing a cleric of Elistraee NEAR the game. I've seen far too many of them...)

 

[coyote6]

Not exactly what I had in mind... I was thinking more along the lines of an elemental cleric, or a priest of a non-war, death, or destruction oriented deity (other than Mystra).

I've played two clerics so far (neither for very long, alas) -- one was a cleric of Shaundakul, with Travel & Air as his domains; the current is a cleric of Pelor, with Healing and Sun as his domains. The first wore a chain shirt; the current wears a breastplate (but it was a gift from his mentor, and the GM's hinted it has Hidden Abilities; his original armor was studded leather).

So, not every cleric has the War domain & tromps around doing their best impression of an M1 Abrams.

(OTOH, in the groups I GM for, all four of the folks with cleric levels have War as a domain -- clerics of Clangeddin, Correllon, Heironeous, and Heironeous, respectively. )

When was the last time you saw a cleric of Sune? How about Waukeen? Tymora? Yondalla? Garl Glittergold? Labelas Enorath? Chauntea? Eldath?[/B]

I was thinking of a cleric of Sune (instead of Shaundakul) or the gnome smith god (instead of Pelor) -- but I couldn't quite figure out how or why such a priest would join the adventurering band o' PCs in those particular campaigns.

Without a compelling reason (e.g., Destroy the Evil X, Throw The Magic Ring Into a Volcano), it often doesn't make a lot of sense for a cleric of one of the more laid back deities to be hanging out with a bunch of hard-bitten door-booting butt-kicking adventurers (which is basically what the PCs in both campaigns were). If you're the cleric of a Smite Evil god, though, you've got built-in reason to go kick in Evil's door, and smite it. Many of the Smite Evil gods have War (or Protection, or Destruction, or Strength) as a domain. That may have something to do with those gods' popularity -- it simply makes sense for an adventuring (=lots of fighting) cleric to follow a such a god.

OTOH, it is probably mostly (a) the free Weapon Focus, and (b) that Kicking Ass Is Fun.