What exactly does "not seamlessly" mean

[gjnave]

Ive been asking a lot of question about Essentials, and the answers about it and original 4E (specifically with blending the two), is that they are compatible, but "Not seamlessly"... what exactly does this mean? What exactly is "not seamless"?

Thanks!

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think I was the one who said "not seamlessly" so let me answer.

Well, to me 100% compatible means that essentials and PHBx classes can fully work with each other, but it is not quite the case.

Say for example I make PHBI fighter, and I want one of the knight or slayer 1st level stances.

I cannot get them. At the moment there is no way to get that. In order to multiclass or take a power from another class, the level and type of power must match, but with essentials new format, this is not always the case. Many essentials power lack that power level. On purpose, or not, I am not sure, but I would bet in purpose.

Apparently in an upcoming book there will be rules for more seamless integration of essentials4E and PHB4E.

But do not mind me, really. They will work together in the same party in the same game with only multiclassing or selecting powers from one book to another causing a few problems.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What he's saying is that he can't combine some options between a PHB1 Fighter and an Essentials Knight or Slayer (which are also Fighters). Of course you couldn't combine all arbitrary options between existing classes anyway (for example you can't pick both Tempest Fighter and Battle Rage Vigor Fighter from Martial Power, they are mutually exclusive options). So it is actually kind of hard to see exactly where there is any more incompatibility IMHO between Essentials and between other 4e books. Not to start a debate with D4H about it, Essentials stuff is a bit different looking and the builds/classes/subclasses whatever they call them now are a little 'odd' compared to what came before.

In terms of playing things at the table there is 100% compatibility though. I don't think a Knight is any more different from a PHB1 Weapon Talent fighter than the Weapon Talent fighter is from say a Swordmage. They play a bit differently, but they all definitely follow the same basic rules. You could swap one out for the other in a party (they are all defenders) and the game will play pretty much the same.

So say you are starting out with Essentials, and some guy comes along with an 'old style' character, he can play it, and it will not cause any problems or be unbalanced.

 

[gjnave]

This makes so much more sense. I've been running around the internet trying to figure out how the two mesh together.. i assumed there was something intrinsic about Essentials altogether that was a little bit disjointed with 4E original. Ie. Essential monsters didnt quite fit, the new rules dont quite work, etc...

I feel like I'm coming out of a fog of misunderstanding. Thanks!

 

[Riastlin]

The only thing I'd really disagree with Abdul on is that its not quite the same to compare a Knight with Fighter as a Tempest Fighter with a BattleRager.

Tempest Fighters can still pick Battlerager-type powers, they just won't get as much out of them. A Knight though cannot pick fighter powers. But yes, there is nothing to stop a game consisting of a Knight, Mage specialized in Fire, Runepriest, Sorceror, and Warlock all in the same party. More to the point, its quite possible that the Sorc, Warlock, and Mage for instance could each take the same feats since a PHB 1 class can take feats found in essentials (generally speaking anyway), and vice-versa.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, this is true, the Tempest Fighter and Battle Rager can use each other's powers. The Knight can use their utility powers, but not the others since he doesn't actually get encounter and daily power choices. I don't think it is a big deal. There could be times when it would be fun to be able to do it, but nothing stops the player from playing a PHB1 style fighter if he wants to do a lot of trading around and gets a lot of choices of powers.

The only other place where there can be a certain level of incompatibility is multi-classing (or hybrids). An Essentials character CAN take a multi-class feat, but characters that lack encounter and/or daily powers can't take the power swap feats. Given that they were never a popular option I don't think that is a big deal, and again you can always fall back to PHB1 classes if you want it. Same with hybrids, you can't hybrid Knight for instance, but there's not really a strong reason to want to as presumably such a player has all the older books.

 

[mudlock]

Say for example I make PHBI fighter, and I want one of the knight or slayer 1st level stances.

I cannot get them.

I offer you an emphatic MEH.

Boohoo, you can't take Cleaving Stance so I guess you'll have to suffer with... Cleave. Which works out to have the same effect in over 95% of cases. Same with Reaping Stance and Reaping Strike, etc. etc. etc..

The reason you can't take both is so you can't double-stack. That's not a "seam," that's fair design.

The whole reason that at-will powers were replaced with at-will stances was because a certain subset of whiners and complainers didn't think it felt right to "cast spells" (really, "activate powers") when they swing a sword. But now, if that makes you feel wrong, you can play an essentials fighter. It's a simple play-style choice, and in no way whatsoever makes anything about the initial 4e and the new E-4e incompatible in the slightest.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Boohoo, you can't take Cleaving Stance so I guess you'll have to suffer with... Cleave.

And because you can't take Defend the Line Stance, you have to suffer with, let's see, oh yeah, Weight of Earth acquired through:

1. Hybrid Fighter | Warden,
2. Half-Elf Fighter with Versatile Master at paragon, or
3. Fighter MC Warden and Paragon Multiclassing

Throw in Heavy Blade Opportunity and you can even use it on OAs, assuming you use a Heavy Blade. It's not like anyone cares about granted MBAs or charges, anyway.

But it's true, you can get the equivalent of the less useful stances.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or you can just do HBO polearm based control cheese and outdo Hold the Line by 100x. At level 11 nobody will EVER get past you. Be Dragonborn with Trample the Fallen etc on top of that or various other well-known optimizations. I'd assume a Knight could probably do pretty much the same thing using mostly the same feats. It turns out pretty much the same, but the Essentials character is a bit easier to build at low levels and is pretty effective at this schtick even at level one.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I offer you an emphatic MEH.

Boohoo, you can't take Cleaving Stance so I guess you'll have to suffer with... Cleave. Which works out to have the same effect in over 95% of cases. Same with Reaping Stance and Reaping Strike, etc. etc. etc..

Go past the point of a post often?

Th point I was making, as others have posted in this thread, is that, up to essentials, a class could take all the powers in the class, though, certainly, some of them were sub-optimal, and in the case of the Tempest fighteresque powers, might well mean changing weapons mid-fight.

Battlerager? Not a big problem, take endurance, and you can get something out of those invigorating powers.

It is annoying when WOTC says this is 4E, but makes it very hard to use those options to their fullest. Which, of course, is what Essentials is not really 4E, it is 4.5E

Apologies if I interrupted your whining.