What exactly is an "ally"?

[Snipehunt]

Hypersmurf is getting at a dilemma - if the caster chooses who the ally is for purposes of this spell, then a character should be able to choose who an ally is for purposes of AoO (cleave abuse) and flanking.

To be clear, IMO only those the character, not the player, view as allies are allies. If the character views the doppleganger as an ally at the time, it's an ally. But the player can't just say "Oh, wait, that's an enemy now" unless there's some RP reason.

 

[Wraithdrit]

only those the character, not the player, view as allies are allies. If the character views the doppleganger as an ally at the time, it's an ally. But the player can't just say "Oh, wait, that's an enemy now" unless there's some RP reason.

I think that goes without saying. You can't just arbitrarily claim someone as enemy... unless you are a cleric for a god of chaos.

 

[Rel]

So let's say there's an interloper in the party. A Doppelganger or maybe assassin. Ultimately they intend to kill everyone in the party, but they need some time to scope them out, figure out which party member they should take out first and otherwise wait for a good moment.

The party is attacked by some monsters and the Cleric casts Bless. The Cleric assumes that the interloper is an ally and the interloper has every intention of helping the party fight the monsters in order to more fully gain their trust, so he gets the benefit of the spell.

Then the party proceeds to roll very poorly and the monsters roll very well. A couple party members go down and the monsters are still hanging in there. At this point the interloper decides this would be a good time to strike, so he turns on the party.

Does he retain the benefit of the Bless spell? Does he lose the benefit because he is no longer an ally, even though he was at the start of the encounter?

 

[Wraithdrit]

Since the spell is fire and forget, and not one that is concentrated on, one could argue it does not change even if the interloper turns on the party.

It also references a burst in the description, so I would stay the bless stays.

 

[Camarath]

Hypersmurf is getting at a dilemma - if the caster chooses who the ally is for purposes of this spell, then a character should be able to choose who an ally is for purposes of AoO (cleave abuse) and flanking.

To be clear, IMO only those the character, not the player, view as allies are allies. If the character views the doppleganger as an ally at the time, it's an ally. But the player can't just say "Oh, wait, that's an enemy now" unless there's some RP reason.

As long as the character can chose to view anyone they wish as an ally or emeny (regardless of that creatures view of the situation).

Also I think that there are times when one has allies of convenience. For example Your character and a drow are on oppisite side of an orc. Your character and the drow both intend to harm one another but are both currently attacking the orc so IMO can chose to gain the flanking bonus as if they were actualy allies. IMO the character can treat any creature they wish as an ally if reciprocation is required then the creature must also choose th view the character as an ally. By the same token I think one can treat there normal allies as enemies if the situation requires it.

If a character is not aware of a situation where a decision on who is and who is not an ally needs to be made, then the choice is made as if the character were aware of who the targets are but the character would not in fact aware of the targets, the situation, the choice or it's results.

That is how I play it. The ally vs emeny determination is a subjective choice based on the character's view of the situation and the creatures involved.

 

[Snipehunt]

Well said. The "ally" question requires good roleplaying, or it starts to break down the game

If the cleric thought the doppleganger was an ally when the spell was cast, and while the spell was in effect the doppleganger proved an enemy, I'd have to look at the spell. If it was an emanation, I would rule that it doesn't because the emanation wouldn't recognize them as an enemy. Burst, I would probably rule the effect stays b/c the dopplegagner was a valid target when the spell was cast. - like wraith said.

 

[Knowledge Sinkhole]

Though this isn't the main issue of the thread, it is related: I believe that the Sage once said that the caster is his own ally. Thus, bards benefit from their own inspire courages, etc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ally, in all the games I have played, mean those that the caster wants to affect within the specified range parameters. It is unspoken that allies are those in the party including himself, unless he designates othewise. IMO, this is really the only way to run it.

Yes, but the difference between a spell with a Target: Creatures entry (like 3.5 Mass Cure Light Wounds) and a spell with an Area: Creatures entry (like 3.0 Healing Circle) is that Targets require perception (the caster must be able to see the target) and selection (the caster must choose which creatures are affected), while Area does not require perception (all valid creatures within the area are affected) and does not allow selection (again, all valid creatures within the area are affected).

The Cleric's friend has dispatched a squadron of pixies to help him. The Cleric does not know that his friend has done this; he has never seen a pixie; he has no reason to suspect that any pixies are coming to his aid.

All the pixies arrive, invisible, just in time for the showdown with the BBEG. The Cleric casts Bless.

The pixies are on the Cleric's side. They're about to face near-certain death at his side. Each and every one of them is willing to sacrifice himself to protect the Cleric.

It's just that the Cleric has no idea they are there.

But since Bless is an Area spell, it doesn't matter that the Cleric doesn't know - all of his allies within 50 ft. are affected.

Shouldn't that include the pixies?

-Hyp.

 

[D+1]

PH glossary defines ally as "A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to 'allies' include yourself." Though there's wiggle room in that definition, there's no real need TO wiggle with that definition. Targets who qualify as "ally" are largely self-selecting and the caster does not need to know about unseen allies for the allies to benefit from his spells.