What, exactly, would be the consequenses of allowing 4th-9th level potions?

[Henry]

So, then scrolls of this level are also 100% TOTALLY AND UTTERLY prohibited for the same reason, right?

Scrolls have a failure chance, whereas Potions and Scrolls have none.

However, Wands do NOT let non-spell-casters cast spells, unless they are rogues and you are talking Use Magic Device, in which case scrolls would apply for the same reason.

However, Potions are the more GREVIOUS abusers of this. Potion of Time Stop? Oh, heck no! We JUST got rid of potions of haste that gave extra partial actions in 3.5. A potion that allowed ANYONE to shotgun two to 5 extra actions in a round is a serious thing to try and balance, and I wouldn't want to have to give it to all the villains in order to balance it out, either. Might as well say whoever wins the Initiative roll, wins the combat.

A wand that allowed 50 wishes is NASTY! However, if some sucker of a wizard is willing to front the 250 THOUSAND experience points to charge the thing in the first place, then I'd allow it.


In summary, the biggest problem I see is one of having the devices overshadow the characters. Scrolls, not as big of an issue, because chances are whoever is casting from scroll could probably cast it without the scroll, anyway...

 

[Thanee]

So, allowing potions/wands of higher level spells simply lets the players break the rules more effectively.

Nothing breaks the rules more than Craft Wondrous Item.

I really don't think this is a serious problem with potions/wands.

Also bear in mind that things like staffs and rods will be overshadowed by wands of 5+ level spells. e.g. why get a staff of life when you can just get a wand of heal?

Well the good thing with staffs is that you can use your own abilities with them. Ok, that's not very useful with healing magic, but otherwise it's a huge advantage.

Why does the staff of life cost so much, anyways?
And why does it need resurrection, when it casts raise dead!?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Monte At Home]

The limitation is more for flavor than mechanics.

In AU, the craft one-use item and craft charged item feats have no such limitations. But, every 8th and 9th level spell has a x1.5 to x2 cost multiplier for one-use items for a bit of balance (on the reasoning that although a 9th level potion costs a lot, it should probably cost more).

 

[der_kluge]

The limitation is more for flavor than mechanics.

In AU, the craft one-use item and craft charged item feats have no such limitations. But, every 8th and 9th level spell has a x1.5 to x2 cost multiplier for one-use items for a bit of balance (on the reasoning that although a 9th level potion costs a lot, it should probably cost more).

I just love the arbitrary nature of the magic item creation system in the DMG. It's why we wrote the Artificer's Handbook, which coincidentally, has no such level-based limitations for wands, or potions, and the costs in the formulas scale appropriately.

 

[der_kluge]

The limitation is more for flavor than mechanics.

In AU, the craft one-use item and craft charged item feats have no such limitations. But, every 8th and 9th level spell has a x1.5 to x2 cost multiplier for one-use items for a bit of balance (on the reasoning that although a 9th level potion costs a lot, it should probably cost more).

Ok, this one is gnawing at me, so I just have to ask, Monte, and maybe you didn't work on the item creation rules, I don't know, but at some point didn't you have to ask yourself, "hey, we're building in this arbitrary cost mechanism because the costs for these items just doesn't feel right", didn't it ever occur that maybe the formula was off? I mean, why not reevaluate the system rather than impose an arbitrary multiplier into the cost. It's a big reason why people everywhere nowadays are completely stumped at how the DMG arrives at some of the magic item costs.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Um, die_kluge, you do know that Monte's talking about the cost multipliers from Arcana Unearthed and not D&D, right?

That said, I do like AU's item creation system (including the cost multipliers) a LOT better than the core system. I don't really mind the core system, but it could have been more consistent, and easily could have mirrored AU's method of giving different costs for building items that duplicate spells of equal level, but more potent effects when built into items, than other spells.

 

[Breakdaddy]

So, then scrolls of this level are also 100% TOTALLY AND UTTERLY prohibited for the same reason, right?

So in your campaign non spellcasters can cast scroll based spells? In that case, you are right.

 

[nopantsyet]

Mmmmmh. I like it.

Can't say I really felt any lacking for not having higher level potions. But it could be fun for the players to occasionally happen upon extraordinary potions. Imagine being a fighter and get your hands on a potion of Cure Critical Woulds.

And a potion of Implosion could have interesting possibilities...

 

[Trainz]

There's epic versions of the item creation feats, so you could just create an epic version of brew potion.

By having 4+ potions only accessible in epic levels, you would avoid a lot of the possible dangers other posters have pointed out in this thread.

And I totally agree with Henry that a potion of time stop is a big no-no, even at epic levels.

 

[ruleslawyer]

However, Potions are the more GREVIOUS abusers of this. Potion of Time Stop? Oh, heck no!

From the SRD:

Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Time Stop
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

Just to be an ass; sorry.

Regardless, I have to say that I really don't care if other classes get the grand twinkery of time stop for their use; sorcs and wizards are the ones who wreak the most havoc with this spell anyway, and clerics can get it with the Trickery domain (which, in any case, happens to be one of the best core domains, next to Luck and Travel). There, as with 3.0 haste, I see the problem being the spell, not the potion. Likewise, as with 3.0 haste, I see that the people who can cast the spell are the worst abusers. Giving fighters potions of haste never particularly bothered me; that the wizards would unsling the spell in every encounter did.

Anyway, I really do fail to see how this is particularly broken. As long as potions remain priced higher than scrolls, the only folks who gain a real advantage from this are the fighters and barbarians, and they tend to start lagging at very high/epic levels anyway. The price of potions will kill them in the long run, and if they're just using them for single-combat boosts, then they're outclassed in this capacity by the casters anyway, who have enough spell slots at high level to sling around all the necessary one-combat boosts and then some.