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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
[+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8066093" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>I read all 20 pages before chiming in & will agree with a lot of points people made earlier before getting into things. Get rid of at least 1 of the 6 stats. They may have made sense in past editions with wildly different mechanics & actual niche protection but at least two of them are so much better than the other 4 that they invoke stereotypes like <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonmastersGirlfriend?from=Main.DirectorsGirlfriend" target="_blank">this one</a>. The skill system needs to go & it doesn't really matter what replaces it but too many skills were merged <em>(exacerbating the last point)</em> & advantage/disadvantage is a crude blunt instrument akin to a claw hammer where a set of jeweler's tools are needed. Archetypes need to split at the same level (first or whatever) not this scorlockadin is designed for multiclassing while nearly everything else just pretends because <a href="https://411mania.com/games/dd-campaign-stop-stats-level-ten-dd-beyond/" target="_blank"> lets be honest about how long most campaigns last</a>. I don't really care if it's "100% compatible" Converting generally isn't that tough. The false illusion of choice in weapons & armor needs to go.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Someone at wotc keeps trying to shop some screwy version of initiative (speed factor, greyhawk initiative, etc), this person needs to accept that it is really problematic for how most folks run initiative & the game and accept that initiative is <em>not</em> the proper place for the tactical gameplay someone at wotc left out from 5e and add tactical combat to the core gameplay again.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wotc needs to accept that the PHB is not the proper place to write that "forgotten realms campaign setting" book that they don't expect to sell well enough to get a book dedicated to gmpc's & plot armor. The PHB needs to be written <em>for</em> the various settings rather than for the setting baselines of Forgotten realms but occasionally is willing to namedrop other settings.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I DGAF if there are 20 levels or not, but 5e screws the pooch on that one. The game needs to work for slower advancing parties who focus more on plot/story/setting development than 5e currently allows where the game is assumed to quickly skyrocket through levels & then has a ton of classes not feel like their archetype comes online till they are basically in campaign wrapup or later. Fewer levels would go a long way here. Alternately split classes into 3 pillars like race(hp, maybe some skills)/(core)class/background with archetype stuff falling into background along with skill developing archetypes. hybrid classes once known as 1/2 & 1/3 bab/caster level could include the occasional background level gestalt levels</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kill the offensive cantrips as a class feature, make them buyable wands or something & save class cantrips for untility type cantrips. There are a ton of things I can't change in the game because half or more classes have class based <em>weapons </em>in the form of cantrips & those cantrips scale with character level to pretty much exempt them from caring about loot.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Change the extra attacks. Every class needs to get them. Maybe at proficiency X & Y you can make # attacks up to your statmod in the relevant weapon (ie caster/strength/dex) against a target.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gear in general (ie weapons & armor) need more designspace, as a GM it's important to have headroom there to give out an improved bit of gear that is subjectively better for slower leveling games. I don't care if this is a condensed weapon/armor list with fewer choices or not as long as it results in more room than +# & more/larger dice. "do I want the d6 d8 or d10 version of my finess/1h/2h/heavy weapon" is pants on head stupid design & painful for slower advancing campaigns unless they are built into a system like fate where the numbers are just the tip of the iceberg.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">DR needs to return. JFC on a pogostick, there are a bunch of differing halfass attempts to avoid just having d like dmg247 damage threshold, heavy armor master (phb167) that literally is DR, parry (phb74), resistance, & god knows what else that each describe a different one off version of DR meaning that as a GM we can't just add it without a never ending stream of edge cases needing one off rulings. A couple people mentioned ac being heavily based on dex with DR based on armor & that's a good switch.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bring back SR & some analog for representing caster level checks</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There needs to be a structural framework that combat abilities are built off rather than everything being a one off stand alone rule that will conjoin to fight any houserules they might later interact with.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Standardize duration. If a spell/ability lasts a number of rounds that's great, but this hybrid "some last minutes some last hours/days while everything else is short/long rest". If it's not counted in rounds it should be balanced against lasting something like "till next $type rest". Alternately go back to the old 3.5 style rests measured in hours where each hour counts.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lots of people talked about elevating melee/martial... sure fine whatever but Save or Suck & Save or Lose spells & abilities need to be back. This goes for both casters like the old "god wizard" & monsters like wraith/ghast/trog/etc. These SoS/SoL abilities need to come in both short term & long term but must not be something with less impact than a night of drinking & resulting hangover.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Concentration is massively overused, good in some cases sure but it just makes a ton of spells into pointless nonoptions. Instead of concentration for most (buff) spells use something like anarchy online's <a href="https://anarchyonline.fandom.com/wiki/NCU_Memory" target="_blank">NCU </a>system using dragonshards or whatever equipment/level/class based thing to maintain these spells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The idea of combining feat chains was nice & all but it resulted in feats that are too powerful so they weren't really a choice so much as "I'm level a 4 $whatever so I'm going to take one of these feats & take the others at 6/8/10/12" while also making a ton of the smaller feats into traps that catch less experienced players by looking good. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Humans are an omnivorous endurance predator & they build communities, If race still is the place for stats they should be con/cha & get a racial ability related to those because a feat is way too good compared to what every other race gets as soon as a multifeat build comes online at 4/6/8.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlock needs to just diaf. Seriously, this munchkin deck of multiplicative multiclass abilities masquerading as a class just needs to die & be split among the various classes and/or feats instead of consuming all of their design space. I'm not opposed to the concept of a warlock, but it needs to be a cohesive class rather than this all consuming bolted on homebrew build-a-class system.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Dragonmarked races need to be part of core not some afterthought.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8066093, member: 93670"] I read all 20 pages before chiming in & will agree with a lot of points people made earlier before getting into things. Get rid of at least 1 of the 6 stats. They may have made sense in past editions with wildly different mechanics & actual niche protection but at least two of them are so much better than the other 4 that they invoke stereotypes like [URL='https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonmastersGirlfriend?from=Main.DirectorsGirlfriend']this one[/URL]. The skill system needs to go & it doesn't really matter what replaces it but too many skills were merged [I](exacerbating the last point)[/I] & advantage/disadvantage is a crude blunt instrument akin to a claw hammer where a set of jeweler's tools are needed. Archetypes need to split at the same level (first or whatever) not this scorlockadin is designed for multiclassing while nearly everything else just pretends because [URL='https://411mania.com/games/dd-campaign-stop-stats-level-ten-dd-beyond/'] lets be honest about how long most campaigns last[/URL]. I don't really care if it's "100% compatible" Converting generally isn't that tough. The false illusion of choice in weapons & armor needs to go. [LIST] [*]Someone at wotc keeps trying to shop some screwy version of initiative (speed factor, greyhawk initiative, etc), this person needs to accept that it is really problematic for how most folks run initiative & the game and accept that initiative is [I]not[/I] the proper place for the tactical gameplay someone at wotc left out from 5e and add tactical combat to the core gameplay again. [*]Wotc needs to accept that the PHB is not the proper place to write that "forgotten realms campaign setting" book that they don't expect to sell well enough to get a book dedicated to gmpc's & plot armor. The PHB needs to be written [I]for[/I] the various settings rather than for the setting baselines of Forgotten realms but occasionally is willing to namedrop other settings. [*]I DGAF if there are 20 levels or not, but 5e screws the pooch on that one. The game needs to work for slower advancing parties who focus more on plot/story/setting development than 5e currently allows where the game is assumed to quickly skyrocket through levels & then has a ton of classes not feel like their archetype comes online till they are basically in campaign wrapup or later. Fewer levels would go a long way here. Alternately split classes into 3 pillars like race(hp, maybe some skills)/(core)class/background with archetype stuff falling into background along with skill developing archetypes. hybrid classes once known as 1/2 & 1/3 bab/caster level could include the occasional background level gestalt levels [*]Kill the offensive cantrips as a class feature, make them buyable wands or something & save class cantrips for untility type cantrips. There are a ton of things I can't change in the game because half or more classes have class based [I]weapons [/I]in the form of cantrips & those cantrips scale with character level to pretty much exempt them from caring about loot. [*]Change the extra attacks. Every class needs to get them. Maybe at proficiency X & Y you can make # attacks up to your statmod in the relevant weapon (ie caster/strength/dex) against a target. [*]Gear in general (ie weapons & armor) need more designspace, as a GM it's important to have headroom there to give out an improved bit of gear that is subjectively better for slower leveling games. I don't care if this is a condensed weapon/armor list with fewer choices or not as long as it results in more room than +# & more/larger dice. "do I want the d6 d8 or d10 version of my finess/1h/2h/heavy weapon" is pants on head stupid design & painful for slower advancing campaigns unless they are built into a system like fate where the numbers are just the tip of the iceberg. [*]DR needs to return. JFC on a pogostick, there are a bunch of differing halfass attempts to avoid just having d like dmg247 damage threshold, heavy armor master (phb167) that literally is DR, parry (phb74), resistance, & god knows what else that each describe a different one off version of DR meaning that as a GM we can't just add it without a never ending stream of edge cases needing one off rulings. A couple people mentioned ac being heavily based on dex with DR based on armor & that's a good switch. [*]Bring back SR & some analog for representing caster level checks [*]There needs to be a structural framework that combat abilities are built off rather than everything being a one off stand alone rule that will conjoin to fight any houserules they might later interact with. [*]Standardize duration. If a spell/ability lasts a number of rounds that's great, but this hybrid "some last minutes some last hours/days while everything else is short/long rest". If it's not counted in rounds it should be balanced against lasting something like "till next $type rest". Alternately go back to the old 3.5 style rests measured in hours where each hour counts. [*]Lots of people talked about elevating melee/martial... sure fine whatever but Save or Suck & Save or Lose spells & abilities need to be back. This goes for both casters like the old "god wizard" & monsters like wraith/ghast/trog/etc. These SoS/SoL abilities need to come in both short term & long term but must not be something with less impact than a night of drinking & resulting hangover. [*]Concentration is massively overused, good in some cases sure but it just makes a ton of spells into pointless nonoptions. Instead of concentration for most (buff) spells use something like anarchy online's [URL='https://anarchyonline.fandom.com/wiki/NCU_Memory']NCU [/URL]system using dragonshards or whatever equipment/level/class based thing to maintain these spells. [*]The idea of combining feat chains was nice & all but it resulted in feats that are too powerful so they weren't really a choice so much as "I'm level a 4 $whatever so I'm going to take one of these feats & take the others at 6/8/10/12" while also making a ton of the smaller feats into traps that catch less experienced players by looking good. [*]Humans are an omnivorous endurance predator & they build communities, If race still is the place for stats they should be con/cha & get a racial ability related to those because a feat is way too good compared to what every other race gets as soon as a multifeat build comes online at 4/6/8. [*]Warlock needs to just diaf. Seriously, this munchkin deck of multiplicative multiclass abilities masquerading as a class just needs to die & be split among the various classes and/or feats instead of consuming all of their design space. I'm not opposed to the concept of a warlock, but it needs to be a cohesive class rather than this all consuming bolted on homebrew build-a-class system. [*]The Dragonmarked races need to be part of core not some afterthought. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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