What happen if a fire elemental fails to make the jump over a body of water?

[gnfnrf]

I would call "BS" on that as a player. Nothing else gets a take back on failed jumps,

The problem is, what's the alternative? Trying to avoid figuring out what happens when it's actually in water, shunting means that it only has to make half the jump DC to make it across, which is equally as lame.

--
gnfnrf

 

[kinem]

A fire elemental isn't on fire, it is fire. It's an element, see? And elements can't be created or destroyed (except by magic), only moved around. So water does not snuff out a fire elemental any more than it would snuff out a boulder or a giant air bubble - the fire has to go somewhere.

 

[RithTheAwakener]

I'd say if a Fire Elemental was stupid enough to jump into a large body of water (like an ocean or lake, not a stream) he would insta-gib. But for the sake coolness, if the Fire Elemental was way strong then he might evaporate the water around him... would be pretty interesting.

 

[JustinA]

Ok, we have it established jumping over water is legal for a fire elemental to attempt. But what happens if the jump result come up a little short?

Does this apply? Or do you say the fire elemental is SOL?

He doesn't jump.

The rule says: "A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it."

Since he failed his Jump check, he CAN'T jump over it. Thus, the body of water is an impassable barrier. And, since it's an impassable barrier, he can't cross it.

Thus, by the RAW, he remains in the space he started in (and isn't even penalized any movement for the failed attempt). (If there were rules for running into a wall, I would use those. And there should be rules for that, given the propensity for invisible walls in D&D. BID.)

But, as everyone else has commented, I'd probably just ditch this rule and replace it with some sort of damage. I, personally, like the blink-adapted rules -- they're flavorful.

 

[Imp]

I don't think our modern understanding of fire as a reaction is at all compatible with the D&Dism of fire as element, not the tiniest little bit, so I'd just ignore that tack completely.

I'm with the lava-type damage + steam camp. I would also hold that a water elemental could conceivably be frozen solid, chopped into little chunks with mundane tools, spread to the four winds, and disposed of that way. Terribly inconvenient, and I don't know what magic would get you there off the top of my head, but plausible enough.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Also bullrushing a fire elemental into a body of water sounds like something that ought to be rewarded. Not just a WA-Wa-wa! sound effect as it is shunted to a legal space for it to move to.

QFT

I still totally disagree. (I see this a lot, and it's starting to become a pet peeve, so sorry if I come across as ranting a tad... because I am.) There's just no basis for this unless you argue fire elementals to be made out of burning wood, which there isn't reason for. That's why fire extinguishers are rated--you don't want to throw water on burning grease or on an electrical fire, for example. People get killed doing that.

As far as I know, fire elementals aren't made out of burning grease, either.

The basis for this line of thought is that the elements are in opposition. That's why 50%+ of the people in this thread know that water damages fire elementals in some way, even if by RAW it doesn't. Because in other games and films and stories there is a huge precedent for things that are made out of fire to be "put out" when they get water on them. By your logic (and really, something like the burning oil in a bathtub example is fairly sound, but again fire elementals are not burning oil), cold shouldn't hurt fire elementals either, but it does.

Fire elementals aren't made of wood. They're elemental fire. They're basically a hole in the fabric of the planes, a conduit to the Plane of Fire, and as far I'm concerned you're attempting to smother spacetime by throwing water at them. This won't work because spacetime isn't fueled by oxygen.

Remember when you said I "just made that up"? Guess what you're doing here?

I don't think anyone has a real problem with fire elementals not being damaged by water directly. It's the people arguing that it gets free jump checks with no penalty for failure, or that it can simply skate across the surface of water unharmed. As far as I know this is the only elemental that doesn't get some kind of penalty by being out of its element; not only that, it isn't impeded or penalized by its opposing element? Get real (and don't tell me that it not being able to enter water is being impeded; if there was a rule that people couldn't enter lava you'd have folks arguing that they can skate across that too; water isn't solid, even if you're made out of fire).

 

[Diirk]

The basis for this line of thought is that the elements are in opposition. That's why 50%+ of the people in this thread know that water damages fire elementals in some way, even if by RAW it doesn't.

The problem with this approach is it isn't consistant. Water and fire are in opposition, sure. Air and Earth are in opposition (Hyp's example before, the cleric elemental domain granted powers also make it pretty clear), and yet you've already said earth creatures shouldn't take damage from air and vice versa. "Fire is a special case so it should take damage from its opposite element even though nothing else should" isn't a very compelling argument.

As far as I know this is the only elemental that doesn't get some kind of penalty by being out of its element

What penalties does the air elemental take for not being in its element? Only earth and water elementals are penalised for attacking creatures not on earth/water, respectively.

 

[Nail]

"Fire is a special case so it should take damage from its opposite element even though nothing else should" isn't a very compelling argument.

A fire elemental can do damage to you simply by being in contact with you.

Water, Earth, and Air can't.

I'd say the Fire elemental is a special case already.

 

[Diirk]

A fire elemental can do damage to you simply by being in contact with you.

Water, Earth, and Air can't.

I'd say the Fire elemental is a special case already.

A fire elemental can do damage simply by being in contact you, only because the rules state such by giving it that special attack form. Much like the rules that state that Delver's do acid damage to anything that touches them, and much like the rules don't state that fire elementals take damage from water.

Remember when a fire and water elemental fight, its the water elemental taking fire damage, not the fire elemental taking extra damage.

 

[DreadArchon]

The basis for this line of thought is that the elements are in opposition. That's why 50%+ of the people in this thread know that water damages fire elementals in some way, even if by RAW it doesn't. Because in other games and films and stories there is a huge precedent for things that are made out of fire to be "put out" when they get water on them.

By this logic, Wizards simply don't exist due to the lack of vancian casting in other settings. Not a compelling argument. Similarly, that Nightcrawler can *BAMF* *BAMF* *BAMF* *BAMF* with impunity does not remove the restrictions on Dimension Door.

By your logic (and really, something like the burning oil in a bathtub example is fairly sound, but again fire elementals are not burning oil), cold shouldn't hurt fire elementals either, but it does.

My logic was actually "water doesn't hurt fire elementals because it doesn't say that it does." It does say that cold hurts them, so it should. (Plus, "cold" is, by real-world definition, a lack of thermal energy. Cold relates to fire much like Negative Energy relates to living creatures, though not exactly.)

Remember when you said I "just made that up"? Guess what you're doing here?

Based on the "as far as I'm concerned" line, I'd say I was making up everything after that. Before that, I was going off of:

An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

As far as I know this is the only elemental that doesn't get some kind of penalty by being out of its element; not only that, it isn't impeded or penalized by its opposing element?

That's just wrong. An Earth Elemental can fly with no penalty (assuming that something casts Fly on it), an Air Elemental is actually better off buried than are many creatures (it'll still be crushed, but it can't suffocate), and a Water Elemental has no special interaction with fire of any sort (excluding fire-dominant planes, but they don't actually need to be in a region of fire for that to be an issue). A Fire Elemental is the only elemental impeded by its opposing element... though, for some weird reason, an Earth Elemental shares the Fire Elemental's restrictions against entering water. (Curious: Do you also let people extinguish Earth Elementals with water? If no, why? They react to water the same way that Fire Elementals do.)

(and don't tell me that it not being able to enter water is being impeded;

Um... "Impede: to retard in movement or progress by means of obstacles or hindrances; obstruct; hinder."

if there was a rule that people couldn't enter lava you'd have folks arguing that they can skate across that too; water isn't solid, even if you're made out of fire).

If such a rule actually existed, they might have a point in claiming that. However, such a rule does not exist, so it makes a poor comparison. (A Water elemental can wade into lava just fine. Though, again, it wouldn't be advisable.)