What happen if a fire elemental fails to make the jump over a body of water?

[Nail]

Remember when a fire and water elemental fight, its the water elemental taking fire damage, not the fire elemental taking extra damage.

No one is disputing that.

What's being made clear is that Fire, as an "element" in the D&D universe, is the only one that does damage simply by existing. It might make sense (as a House rule - no one's arguing this is core rules) that fire takes damage simply by touching its opposite element.

See the parallelism? It's okay if you don't like it....we're well into house rule, "YMMV", "IMO", "IMC", etc.

 

[Bad Paper]

my take:

After the Jump check is resolved, fire elemental goes only as far as it can, then plummets toward the water. [if you play some wonky rules, then you may say that a natural 1 on that check causes the elemental to fall prone in the space from which it tried to jump, but I don't run skill checks this way]

The fire elemental falls and contacts the water. The steam that it is creating:
1) causes concealment, maybe scale the concealment from 10-40% according to size category or hit dice, or keep the percentage level and adjust the size of the steam cloud
2) acts like a grease spell. The DC varies according to size category or hit dice. The elemental loses its dexterity bonus to armor class (pretty much nailing its AC to the low teens).
3) hinders a Move Silently check by 2-20, according to size category or hit dice.
4) hinders a Jump check above and beyond the grease effect: first determine successful Balance check, then take some kinda penalty according to size or HD.

{I can't decide whether size or hit dice is more important for determining these effects. I'm leaning toward hit dice for the grease effect and Jump check, size for the concealment and Move Silently check.}

If the water is moving, the elemental bobs along and gets carried with it, adding that vector to the elemental's movement (or lack). It's important to note that the elemental floats.

Thus we can see that they avoid water because it sucks, not because it damages them. Also, a nice RP effect would be a violation of religious principles, causing the elemental to seek out forgiveness (atonement is a bit harsh, I think).

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

Also, a nice RP effect would be a violation of religious principles, causing the elemental to seek out forgiveness (atonement is a bit harsh, I think).

Nice. Little fire elemental children go swimming in the lake to rebel against their parents. I love it.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Don't forget...the Fire Elemental could be a Wildshaped Druid PC...

My vote is to HR the offending poor rule language out of the picture,

Delete the reference to water being an impassible barrier and replace it with:

Entering normal water causes the water to boil and steam. The elemental takes damage based on how deeply immersed they are and must make a WILL Save vs DC 20 + damage taken. Failure causes them to flee the water by the fastest means possible to the exclusion of any other activity.

Ankle Deep or being splashed with a 8 gallons of water: 1D6 damage, steam cloud has no mechanical effect

Knee Deep or being splashed with a 16 gallons water: 5D6 damage, steam cloud obscures vision, providing an effect similar to the Blur spell

Waist deep, or being splashed with a 24 gallons of water: 10D6 damage, steam cloud obscures vision, providing an effect similar to the Obscuring Mist spell that dissapates in 1D4 rounds

Neck Deep, or being splashed with a 32 gallons of water: 15D6 damage, Steam cloud provides an effect similar to Obscuring Mist that dissapates in 2D4 rounds

Full immersion or being splashed with 40 gallons of water: 20D6 damage, Steam cloud provides an effect similar to Obscuring Mist that dissapates in 2D6 rounds


Once the Elemental has been damaged for half of its max hit points by immersion in water, it loses one size catagory. Another quarter damage reduces it a further step.


In this manner a Fire Elemental brave enough to risk a jump may find itself in mortal danger, but its not an insta-kill or a silly "Waa-waa-waa" effect.

{Depth of immersion based on the Wildscape hazard measurements}

 

[DreadArchon]

Delete the reference to water being an impassible barrier and replace it with:

Changing the rule might be a good idea, but going from "d10 damage if immersed on the Plane of Water" to "20d6 damage if a couple people cast Create Water at the same time" is way too steep, IMAO.

What about:
Ankle - d4 per round
Knee - d6 per round
Waist - d8 per round
Neck - d10 per round
Full - d12 per round

Worse than lighting a human on fire, but no "cantrips can do the same damage as a fall from orbit" weirdness.

But what about Earth Elementals? How would you handle them?

 

[Kor]

RE: Lava Rule

Although this sounds very reasonable, keep in mind that the 20d6 reflects full immersion into the lava.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a fire elemental is light. Accordingly, perhaps only 50% of the 20d6 damage should apply?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I voted it ends up in the nearest legal space... but IMO it should take damage. I'd say up to 7d6 damage for temporary immersion in a Colossal body of water.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

"Fire is a special case so it should take damage from its opposite element even though nothing else should" isn't a very compelling argument.

Who said that? It sure wasn't me.

Earth elementals are constantly in contact with their mother element. So are air elementals, and (generally) water elementals. If a fire elemental gets thrown into a lake, it's SOL.

If a water elemental is slithering around in the forest and someone bombs it with a fireball I don't see anything wrong with 150% damage. If you're playing a game where the four elements are living things and generally in direct opposition it's really not a stretch.

I'd subject an air elemental to drowning rules if it got somehow buried, cut off from air. I'd treat an earth elemental to acid damage if it was somehow suspended and fully enclosed in air, severed from the earth. Water elementals that fall into melting rock turn into steam. Fire elementals that fall in a lake...well let's just say IMC they don't skate across it and type "lol".

I don't care if it's not rules, it's poetic and interesting and it beats "doing damage" 100% of the time.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Changing the rule might be a good idea, but going from "d10 damage if immersed on the Plane of Water" to "20d6 damage if a couple people cast Create Water at the same time" is way too steep, IMAO.

What about:
Ankle - d4 per round
Knee - d6 per round
Waist - d8 per round
Neck - d10 per round
Full - d12 per round

Where's that rule?... I don't tend to use planes IMC. But sure, if there is already a rule stating full immersion damage to a Fire Elemental, that should be the base.

As to the casting of a 'simple cantrip', I based the gallons of water splashed on the Create Water spell with each step being 4 caster levels. This puts the 20D6 damage in the hands of a 20th level caster. Since the splash damage is instantaneous, you couldn't easily have a lot of lower level casters team up to deliver the same volume of water...

But what about Earth Elementals? How would you handle them?

Umm... with care?
Sorry, not quite following you.. Do you mean immersion of Earth Elementals?

As noted above, the Fire Elemental is already a special case. My HR is simply to negate the silly absolute rule and replace it with something that can be played out without breaking the flow of the game. Having the ELemental, as some have suggested, get 'shunted' to the nearest legal space makes it a special case anyway and definately breaks the flow.

"Whats that, I can only make it about 1/2 of the way across this raging river by jumping?.. oh, thats okay. I will transform into an Earth Elemental which gives me some extra Strength to get about 3/4 of the way and then, since water is an impassable barrier, I will make it to the other side. Sure I take a little damage but thats better than being swept away into the unknown and possibly drowning."


All of these 'special' rules simply create loopholes. I would prefer to treat the FIre Elemental as just any other creature, but as this thread proves there are people who think {right or wrong} that water tossed on fire should do something beside make it wet...

JMHO

 

[DreadArchon]

Where's that rule?

Here.

This puts the 20D6 damage in the hands of a 20th level caster.

Yes, but this is a level ZERO spell we're talking about.

Since the splash damage is instantaneous, you couldn't easily have a lot of lower level casters team up to deliver the same volume of water...

Readied actions.

As noted above, the Fire Elemental is already a special case.

No, it reacts to water just like an Earth Elemental does. It just has an easier time because it can burrow under the river.

All of these 'special' rules simply create loopholes. I would prefer to treat the FIre Elemental as just any other creature, but as this thread proves there are people who think {right or wrong} that water tossed on fire should do something beside make it wet...

I agree. (That's why I'd use the Turning rules, myself. Obviously that's a house rule too, of course.)

Fire elementals are a special case; Earth elementals are constantly in contact with their mother element. So are air elementals, and (generally) water elementals.

After reading this again, I'm inclined to think that you've probably hit the nail on the head with what the designers were going for. They didn't execute it very well, but it reminds me of the rule where a ghost can be in objects but it can't be out of contact with open space.

Though I should point out that the Manual of the Planes identifies light as a manifestation of the Fire element.

(Hmmm, what happens to a ghost if you move the contents of a room around such that he's enclosed fully in the wall? Shunted?)