D&D 3E/3.5 What happens if you dismiss a spell made permanent?

[smuckenfart]

Arcane Sight has a "Duration: 1 min./level (D)" as seen in the PHB pg. 201, it is dismissible. Arcane sight can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

What happens if you dismiss it so that your eyes don't glow blue. Would that effectively permanently lose be spell effect and the 1500xp cost, or could you enable it again as it hasn't been dispelled (by a higher level caster than you were when you cast the spell)?

 

[Alzrius]

Insofar as I can tell, you've found an area where the rules aren't entirely clear.

I can see two possible explanations; the first is that you can dismiss the spell in the usual terms, which is that you effectively end it, regardless of having made it permanent, and you're out the XP cost. The second is that you've effectively "suppressed" it, and it's simply not active, but you can reactivate it at will (and it can still be dispelled by a higher-level caster during that time, since I'd be wary of having a permanent-but-dismissed spell somehow be undetectable/un-dispel-able when you'd "turned it off").

Personally, I'd go with the latter interpretation myself, as it seems more fun and less punishing.

EDIT: I suppose there is a third option, which is that you can't dismiss it in any regard; it remains active until a higher-level caster than you were when you cast permanency dispels it. But that seems rather blasé.

 

[smuckenfart]

Insofar as I can tell, you've found an area where the rules aren't entirely clear.

I can see two possible explanations; the first is that you can dismiss the spell in the usual terms, which is that you effectively end it, regardless of having made it permanent, and you're out the XP cost. The second is that you've effectively "suppressed" it, and it's simply not active, but you can reactivate it at will (and it can still be dispelled by a higher-level caster during that time, since I'd be wary of having a permanent-but-dismissed spell somehow be undetectable/un-dispel-able when you'd "turned it off").

Personally, I'd go with the latter interpretation myself, as it seems more fun and less punishing.

EDIT: I suppose there is a third option, which is that you can't dismiss it in any regard; it remains active until a higher-level caster than you were when you cast permanency dispels it. But that seems rather blasé.

Suppressing the effect wouldn't suppress the aura, I would think, like a relay: it stops the electricity on one side of the switch, but the electricity still flows through the wire. Aura suppression is what Nystul's Aura is for.

The hooks here are the terms, Dismissible, which ceases the spell, and Permanent, which may imply no longer dismissible. Or, is it like Superman's x-ray vision. He can always see through things but chooses not to. We can see near, or we can see far depending on where we focus. I can choose to see magic aura's, or I can not. Is it a matter of focus? Or, is it more like not being able to turn off color? Is it dismissible, but not forever because it's permanent?

My DM typically invokes the Rule of Cool with regards to rules as guidelines. If it's cool and not game breaking or unreasonable, he'll allow it.

 

[Grogg of the North]

I think we need to look at the Duration entry in the Magic chapter (10? IAFB). It seems that the Permanency spell changes the duration of the spell. Instead of having a duration of 1 min / level (D), the spell now has a duration of Permanent.

Now as a GM, I would allow you suppress the effects of your Arcane Sight but if someone cast Detect Magic it would still register. You could then use a standard action to resume using Arcane Sight's ability. But at least your eyes wouldn't be eerily blue. And you wouldn't be overwhelmed in the Magick Mart.

I think the only way to forever be rid of your Arcane Sight is like @Alzrius said and that is to have someone use Dispel Magic on you.

 

[James Gasik]

Since the light doesn't provide illumination, it should be trivial to dim it, perhaps with Prestidigitation.

 

[smuckenfart]

If the spell with a duration is dismissible, would it be reasonable to say that s spell made permanent is suppressible?

This is relevant not only for Arcane Sight, which my sorceress will be able to make permanent next level, but also for other spell effects that she has just created:

Allow me to provide another context:

My sorceress gained her first 5th level spell recently, during her downtime after our adventures spent several weeks researching spells...

"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

Intrigued by the Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, she was able to manifest a version of that in herself.
She calls it Mordenkainen's Private Bubble.

It functions the same, except it's area of effect is a 5' emanation centered on the caster, with a duration of 1 minute/level. The Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum is Dismissible, and it can also be made with Permanency.

If the Bubble were treated the same, and made permanent, having the bubble surround her at all times would be crippling in many respects. If it were suppressible, that changes things, but not if dismissing it rendered the 2500xp wasted.

 

[Grogg of the North]

I think in the case of Mage's Private Bubble, I would rule as the GM that the area affected by the spell when cast can be made permanent. So, if your sorcerer cast Private Bubble in their bedroom and then had it made permanent, the Private Bubble would persist in that room indefinitely. It would not follow your sorcerer around, terrifying the townsfolk. I feel like this would be a bit closer to the original effect of Private Sanctum. However, all of this is GM dependent. Talk to your GM and figure it out before you decide to burn that XP.

 

[smuckenfart]

I think in the case of Mage's Private Bubble, I would rule as the GM that the area affected by the spell when cast can be made permanent. So, if your sorcerer cast Private Bubble in their bedroom and then had it made permanent, the Private Bubble would persist in that room indefinitely. It would not follow your sorcerer around, terrifying the townsfolk. I feel like this would be a bit closer to the original effect of Private Sanctum. However, all of this is GM dependent. Talk to your GM and figure it out before you decide to burn that XP.

A logical and sensible perspective.
What do you think about the other dismissible spells in the permanency list?

 

[Grogg of the North]

Of the spells that can be dismissed:

Detect Magic is a cantrip and unless you absolutely need to know right now if something is magical, it can wait until you get home / out of the dungeon.

See Invisibility would be worth being made permanent. I like the idea though of a mage having to blink several times to bring up the right magical effect in their eyes.

Enlarge Person would make social interactions harder. Or even just finding a bed to sleep on! You're better off getting a custom magic item made that grants Enlarge Person 3/day.

Telepathic Bond would be great if you're in a social / intrigue heavy campaign. Or if the party splits up a lot. Just be sure to ask your GM if you have a mute button. In case your PC needs some alone time or is in the bathroom.

A permanent Alarm spell is useful if you have a base.

Dancing Lights, for your own disco/rave club!

Ghost Sound, see above.

Invisibility can only be put on an object permanently. I guess if you really wanted to hide something from someone you could. But there are plenty of ways around invisibility that I think you'd just be wasting XP.

A permanent Prismatic Wall, Wall of Force, or Web feels like something an NPC would do. Again, if you've got a home base and you're trying to fortify it, this could be a good choice. Otherwise, I'd pass.

If your party is splitting their time between two different cities then Teleportation Circle is definitely a good choice.

Of the spells that are not dismissible, I would highly recommend Darkvision. Darkvision granting magic items are pretty uncommon and seem to be over priced for what they do. This would be a good choice.

On a side note, I love permanent Symbols of Death. Long long ago, before 4E was even a thought in a developer's mind, I played a necromancer. Now the party rogue loved to play little jokes on the party. And one of those jokes was that he liked to steal my spellbook. Frustrated, I informed the rogue that the next time he took my spellbook would likely be his last as their would be dire consequences for such an action. That night, feigning sleep, I heard the rogue rummage through my items and take my spellbook. I then heard his body collapse in the hallway as he activated the symbol. The party was mostly evil and we decided that leaving the rogue dead was the only way he'd learn his lesson. I did, however, get a skeleton out of the deal.