D&D 5E What high-level spells could warp society?

[TwoSix]

So, I'm contemplating a setting idea where 20th level isn't the elite pinnacle of gods and legends. Rather, 20th level just means that someone has arrived into the "real influence" tier of society, where the movers and shakers of society start to take an interest in you. This would be a world crawling with dangerous threats, such that your average farmer is 4th-5th level, and town guards would be 9th-10th level. I don't want it to be crazy over-the-top though, just more of a Forgotten Realms with the volume turned up a bit. Since top-tier 5e magic is pretty restrained compared to AD&D or 3e levels, I think having play demonstrate such a feel is (theoretically) feasible.

So, I'm wondering, if a fair number of people have consistent access to 9th level magic, what sort of implications would that have for how "adventurer society" acts? Off the top of my head, access to resurrection and true resurrection makes death a speedbump; taking out individuals would require capture and probably frequent use of the imprisoment spell. Teleport circles would be common. Simulacra would be routinely deployed for errands. And keeping your true form concealed with liberal use of true polymorph would be extremely common.

 

[DEFCON 1]

First off... throw the pseudo-medieval crap right out the window. Heck... with the tens of thousands of years that Faerun has been in existence and has had access to 9th level / 10th level magic... the fact that they are still pseudo-medieval is completely stupid. Technology through magic should have taken all societies into modern if not far future levels by now.

Illness-- gone. Energy-- abundant. Food and water-- abundant. Death-- gone. Building of structures-- easy. Transportation-- simple. Entertainment-- VR via illusion easily a thing.

I'm sorry... but as soon as the first person figured out a way to 'Wish' things they wanted into existence via 9th level magic... almost every single person in all societies would have been sending their kids to magic school. 20th level Wizards would be all over the place, not just in the hands of a few people. Heck... we humans learned about medicine and curing diseases and have since then been seeing hundreds of thousands of people go to medical school to continue that. Anyone think we wouldn't see the exact same thing with magic if people could cure diseases and raise the dead?

Humans within written history and their advances in technology started maybe like 8000 years ago, and we can see where we are now. Technological advancement begats technology advancement, and thus worlds remaining stuck in medieval times when advanced magic can pretty much solve all of humanity's problems is laughable.

 

[ezo]

You just have to make it so the ability to learn, let alone master, spells like Wish require more than just "going to Wizards School". Think of everything a PC has to do during the course of their adventures, the (likely) hundreds of hours of game play and battles and encounters to be conquered to reach 20th level. How would "normal folk" in the world reach those levels in such a setting?

Not everyone is a doctor today for a reason. Cost is certainly a factor, but dedication and ability are paramont as well. We know about the doctors who've made, but how many have washed out? Either in undergrad studying biology, med school studying anatomy (or whatever), interships, etc.?

Now, if the OP means that anyone can learn to be a wizard and cast *wish" then yeah, I agree, the concept of "medieval" in such a setting is ludicrous unless you're at a Ren Fair.

Granted, in our modern world about 1 in 900 people are a medical doctor (or better depending on your source...). So, if you translate that into a town of 4500, you would have 5 people at "20th level" or so. They have "arrived" so to say. But, being 20th level might be a Fighter (captain of the town guard?), a Mayor (20th level Politician), etc. Even in such a setting you can assume everyone belongs to a player class. So, that is another thing for the OP to consider I guess.

What does it mean for the average farmer to be 4th-5th level? 4th-5th level what?

Basically, I feel like this is taking the E6 concept and standing it on its head. In E6, a 6th-level PC with fireball is a force to be reckoned with by a village. CR 3 monsters could kill a squard of guards before (maybe) being driven off. The OP's idea turns that all around. What if a couple guards could drive of a manticore, for instance? A 12-year old kid with a staff is a 2nd-level monk and fights off a normal wolf with ease? No dragon would attack a town, knowing those five 20th-level whatevers will be there to kick its ass...

I don't believe such a world is something we could even contemplate with any real degree of accuracy. Whatever you might imagine, multiply it 100-fold or more and you might be close IMO.

 

[Umbran]

First off... throw the pseudo-medieval crap right out the window. Heck... with the tens of thousands of years that Faerun has been in existence and has had access to 9th level / 10th level magic... the fact that they are still pseudo-medieval is completely stupid. Technology through magic should have taken all societies into modern if not far future levels by now.

Magic, as presented in the rules, still leans toward craftsman-style production models, because magic itself cannot be mass-produced within the rules. The spellcaster cannot be replaced by automation.

Also note: within the (5e) rules, there are no rules for creating new formulae for creating magical items - innovation must be stipulated by GM fiat. Which is fine, but it makes it clear that, however we feel about it, the rules themselves do not actually make real-world-modern-style developments inevitable.

I'm sorry... but as soon as the first person figured out a way to 'Wish' things they wanted into existence via 9th level magic... almost every single person in all societies would have been sending their kids to magic school

Wish isn't actually all that and a bag of chips any more....

 

[Shardstone]

First off... throw the pseudo-medieval crap right out the window. Heck... with the tens of thousands of years that Faerun has been in existence and has had access to 9th level / 10th level magic... the fact that they are still pseudo-medieval is completely stupid. Technology through magic should have taken all societies into modern if not far future levels by now.

Illness-- gone. Energy-- abundant. Food and water-- abundant. Death-- gone. Building of structures-- easy. Transportation-- simple. Entertainment-- VR via illusion easily a thing.

I'm sorry... but as soon as the first person figured out a way to 'Wish' things they wanted into existence via 9th level magic... almost every single person in all societies would have been sending their kids to magic school. 20th level Wizards would be all over the place, not just in the hands of a few people. Heck... we humans learned about medicine and curing diseases and have since then been seeing hundreds of thousands of people go to medical school to continue that. Anyone think we wouldn't see the exact same thing with magic if people could cure diseases and raise the dead?

Humans within written history and their advances in technology started maybe like 8000 years ago, and we can see where we are now. Technological advancement begats technology advancement, and thus worlds remaining stuck in medieval times when advanced magic can pretty much solve all of humanity's problems is laughable.

Love this, and this is how I think.

I moderate it by having big disasters naughty word up the world and stall or reset progress every so often.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Magic, as presented in the rules, still leans toward craftsman-style production models, because magic itself cannot be mass-produced within the rules. The spellcaster cannot be replaced by automation.

Also note: within the (5e) rules, there are no rules for creating new formulae for creating magical items - innovation must be stipulated by GM fiat. Which is fine, but it makes it clear that, however we feel about it, the rules themselves do not actually make real-world-modern-style developments inevitable.

Wish isn't actually all that and a bag of chips any more....

The game rules and the worlds that these game rules are meant to be used within are not one and the same. The people within these worlds do not live via the game rules. Even dungeon masters who make and place things within these worlds do not use game rules for everything, they just use their own imaginations.

But be that as it may... I still claim that even if these worlds did in fact work only via the game rules as presented... all of these societies would still be different and more advanced than how they get presented by the game. If people learned that even the simplest magics could Create Food And Water and Cure Wounds... millions of people over all these thousands of years would have studied magic and thus brought these spells into ubiquity. I mean... it's not like in our world someone invented the steam engine and then only a select handful of "adventurers" after that ever learned how that technology was created and then recreated it. Nope... that technology flourished... thousands of other people learned how to use it, thousands of businesses took that technology and created product out of it, and thousands more of each learned how to make it better and create new things out of it. That's how learning works. That's how business works.

The fact that most of the worlds of D&D are still written that these grand magical spells are invented but then no one ever bothers to learn them except for a select few is silly (from a world-building and world-evolution perspective.)

 

[Umbran]

The game rules and the worlds that these game rules are meant to be used within are not one and the same.

I am well aware of that.

The point is that advancing the social forms is not inevitable. It is a worldbuilding CHOICE.

But be that as it may... I still claim that even if these worlds did in fact work only via the game rules as presented... all of these societies would still be different and more advanced than how they get presented by the game. If people learned that even the simplest magics could Create Food And Water and Cure Wounds...

If they worked by the game rules, we still don't know how many of them can actually become spellcasters. The rules do not cover how people in the world without class levels get them. 1st level is a fait accompli for PCs, and GM fiat for anyone else.

millions of people over all these thousands of years would have studied magic and thus brought these spells into ubiquity.

Again, my point is that is not something we get from the rules. That is, again, a worldbuilding choice. One you are welcome to make, but it is just as valid to say that spellcasters in the world are rare, such that this does not happen.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I am well aware of that.

The point is that advancing the social forms is not inevitable. It is a worldbuilding CHOICE.



If they worked by the game rules, we still don't know how many of them can actually become spellcasters. The rules do not cover how people in the world without class levels get them. 1st level is a fait accompli for PCs, and GM fiat for anyone else.



Again, my point is that is not something we get from the rules. That is, again, a worldbuilding choice. One you are welcome to make, but it is just as valid to say that spellcasters in the world are rare, such that this does not happen.

Yes, people can do whatever they want with their world building. That will not stop me from believing that their choices which keep them stuck in medieval times after 10,000 years of Fabrication, Teleport, and True Resurrection is just silly.

But they can do them.

 

[Stalker0]

So there is a question of "how prevalent" we are talking about. Does a rich noble have 2 20th level wizards on tap? Or sure in a week or two they could get a lvl 9 spell cast. There is some factor in there. But otherwise lets go the board.

First the low hanging fruit. The elites would be invincible gods in such a world, immortal, invulnerable, capable of traveling the world in an instant. They could construct cities in days, would have palaces beyond imagining. War between normals and elites would be unthinkable such would be the elites capable, and war between elites would look like two super powers in modern times going to war. So just to set a general tone.

I'll go and cover a few of the high level powers and how they would change things up.

1) True Polymorph: Turn any object into a CR9 creature that remains friendly to you permanently. Perfect to amass an army of soldiers or servants. Now they aren't mindless slaves, but still you pay them and treat them well, no reason you couldn't amass quite an exotic staff, with the menagerie of capabilities of CR9 creatures. Sky's practically the limit on that one.

2) Wish: If we assume that such a society would only use "super wishes" as a true emergency, that the expectation would be only the standard uses....this actually is pretty tame in teh context of everything else that is possible.

3) Imprisonment: In a world where Resurrections and Reincarnations are simple costs on a business ledger....this is the spell the elite would truly fear. Being stuck in a place where their resources couldn't find them for thousands of years, unable to move or do anything....horrific. A lot of paranoia amongst the elite would be about this magic, its likely the "Voldemort" or society, people wouldn't even want to whisper its name just for the stigma.

4) Simulacrum: One of the very key questions here is your interpretation of the clause "The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn". If you literally just see this as the thing can't gain levels....than for all intensive purposes you can just replicate any person. Its practically the dnd version of what you often see in Sci Fi with cloning.....take the brightest researcher in the world and magnify them 1000 fold.

That said, depending on the availability of 7th versus 9th level spells it might be cheaper to work with tons of true polymorphed people (with the wide variety of stats that CR9 creatures could give you).

On the other, if you take a harsh intepretation, (such as the creature barely has even short term memory), than they would perhaps personal attendants but wouldn't serve well for longer missions.

 

[CreamCloud0]

an interesting topic, i only wish i had the right mindset to think about the knock on effects properly.