D&D 5E What high-level spells could warp society?

[Micah Sweet]

I am well aware of that.

The point is that advancing the social forms is not inevitable. It is a worldbuilding CHOICE.



If they worked by the game rules, we still don't know how many of them can actually become spellcasters. The rules do not cover how people in the world without class levels get them. 1st level is a fait accompli for PCs, and GM fiat for anyone else.



Again, my point is that is not something we get from the rules. That is, again, a worldbuilding choice. One you are welcome to make, but it is just as valid to say that spellcasters in the world are rare, such that this does not happen.

What amount of setting sense does it make that spellcasters are rare, especially under these circumstances? What possible reason could there be that so few beings have class levels? In some ways, the NPC classes from 3e made a lit more sense than what modern D&D does (when it bothers to think about these things at all).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think that with long-term availability of very high level spells, magic use would not only be far more common, there would also be many, many more spells, for all aspects of life (not just adventuring). Spells in business and particularly commerce would be a fact of life (a way of life, really).

 

[Dausuul]

So, I'm contemplating a setting idea where 20th level isn't the elite pinnacle of gods and legends. Rather, 20th level just means that someone has arrived into the "real influence" tier of society, where the movers and shakers of society start to take an interest in you. This would be a world crawling with dangerous threats, such that your average farmer is 4th-5th level, and town guards would be 9th-10th level. I don't want it to be crazy over-the-top though, just more of a Forgotten Realms with the volume turned up a bit. Since top-tier 5e magic is pretty restrained compared to AD&D or 3e levels, I think having play demonstrate such a feel is (theoretically) feasible.

So, I'm wondering, if a fair number of people have consistent access to 9th level magic, what sort of implications would that have for how "adventurer society" acts? Off the top of my head, access to resurrection and true resurrection makes death a speedbump; taking out individuals would require capture and probably frequent use of the imprisoment spell. Teleport circles would be common. Simulacra would be routinely deployed for errands. And keeping your true form concealed with liberal use of true polymorph would be extremely common.

The Clone spell means anyone rich enough to pay for the material components every 50 years or so is essentially immortal, and those who can afford it more often won't even show signs of aging.

Transportation is far more advanced than even our world. The Gate spell can move everything from caravans to armies; with good coordination and magical flight, you can move several thousand troops in a single casting.

 

[Charlaquin]

What 9th level spells wouldn’t warp society? Maybe Power Word Kill? Maybe Blade of Disaster? Both mostly just kill stuff, and there are plenty of other ways to do that, with or without magic. I think pretty much all the rest would completely revolutionize society if easily accessible to the ruling class.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I imagine it would be something like Steve Brust's Vlad Taltos novels, but dialed up to 11.

That said, if such high level magics were relatively common for any sufficient length of time, countermeasures would be developed against many of those magics. Probably not for commoners, but for elites.

For example, easy access to True Resurrection would warrant some way of killing your enemies permanently. Imprisonment is one option, but requires a high level caster to fulfill the duties of assassin. Perhaps more importantly, it takes the target off the board but leaves them to potentially retrievable. Which is not ideal. Borrowing from the aforementioned novels, magic users might invent weapons that devour the target's soul, guaranteeing that they won't be resurrected.

Simulacrums and True Polymorph might warrant dispelling magic or even anti magic in high security areas.

Classic armies would be vulnerable to spells like Meteor Swarm, so either some kind of countermeasures would be devised, or (more likely, IMO) wars would be fought by small, elite, high level units.

FWIW, my preference is the opposite of such a setting, with low level characters being uncommon and 20th level characters being rare as hens' teeth. But in the spirit of the OP, this is what I venture such a setting would resemble.

 

[TwoSix]

Now, if the OP means that anyone can learn to be a wizard and cast *wish" then yeah, I agree, the concept of "medieval" in such a setting is ludicrous unless you're at a Ren Fair.

Definitely not the intent. Being a Tier 4 (17+ level) character would be like being an esteemed neurosurgeon or an Ivy League lawyer who argues cases before the Supreme Court. They're around, but they aren't common, and they're in a social class all their own.

I'm kind of going for that vibe in modern thrillers where there's a bunch of shadowy groups of super-skilled people who are all vaguely aware of each other's existence. A Tier 4 character is someone who's now ready to play in the big leagues.

What does it mean for the average farmer to be 4th-5th level? 4th-5th level what?

Some sort of PC or PC-equivalent class (something homebrewed would be an option here), or with powers roughly equivalent.

Basically, I feel like this is taking the E6 concept and standing it on its head. In E6, a 6th-level PC with fireball is a force to be reckoned with by a village. CR 3 monsters could kill a squard of guards before (maybe) being driven off. The OP's idea turns that all around. What if a couple guards could drive of a manticore, for instance? A 12-year old kid with a staff is a 2nd-level monk and fights off a normal wolf with ease? No dragon would attack a town, knowing those five 20th-level whatevers will be there to kick its ass...

Yea, it's basically "E20". The town doesn't get threatened by a manticore, that's a problem a few farmers can take care of.
A flight of fiendish manticores is more of the standard "sound the alarm and find some adventurers" threat.

The game starts with the characters maxed out (or nearly so, I might start at 18th or 19th), and the focus of growth is gaining epic boons and legendary/artifact power magic items.

Yes, people can do whatever they want with their world building. That will not stop me from believing that their choices which keep them stuck in medieval times after 10,000 years of Fabrication, Teleport, and True Resurrection is just silly.

But they can do them.

My general idea is that these conditions have not been in place for thousands of years. The amount of ambient magic waxes and wanes over the ages, and the world is currently at a very high level, fostering the growth of supernatural abilities among the population. It's only been like this currently for maybe 200 years? And how long it will last is unknown, and not something the population dwells on.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Definitely not the intent. Being a Tier 4 (17+ level) character would be like being an esteemed neurosurgeon or an Ivy League lawyer who argues cases before the Supreme Court. They're around, but they aren't common, and they're in a social class all their own.

I'm kind of going for that vibe in modern thrillers where there's a bunch of shadowy groups of super-skilled people who are all vaguely aware of each other's existence. A Tier 4 character is someone who's now ready to play in the big leagues.


Some sort of PC or PC-equivalent class (something homebrewed would be an option here), or with powers roughly equivalent.


Yea, it's basically "E20". The town doesn't get threatened by a manticore, that's a problem a few farmers can take care of.
A flight of fiendish manticores is more of the standard "sound the alarm and find some adventurers" threat.

The game starts with the characters maxed out (or nearly so, I might start at 18th or 19th), and the focus of growth is gaining epic boons and legendary/artifact power magic items.


My general idea is that these conditions have not been in place for thousands of years. The amount of ambient magic waxes and wanes over the ages, and the world is currently at a very high level, fostering the growth of supernatural abilities among the population. It's only been like this currently for maybe 200 years? And how long it will last is unknown, and not something the population dwells on.

Still a potential issue though to my mind. The Industrial Revolution was less than 200 years ago.

 

[TwoSix]

So there is a question of "how prevalent" we are talking about. Does a rich noble have 2 20th level wizards on tap? Or sure in a week or two they could get a lvl 9 spell cast. There is some factor in there. But otherwise lets go the board.

The former (rich people will have multiple 20th level retainers on tap, and assumedly numerous Tier 3 employees.)

1) True Polymorph: Turn any object into a CR9 creature that remains friendly to you permanently. Perfect to amass an army of soldiers or servants. Now they aren't mindless slaves, but still you pay them and treat them well, no reason you couldn't amass quite an exotic staff, with the menagerie of capabilities of CR9 creatures. Sky's practically the limit on that one.

2) Wish: If we assume that such a society would only use "super wishes" as a true emergency, that the expectation would be only the standard uses....this actually is pretty tame in teh context of everything else that is possible.

3) Imprisonment: In a world where Resurrections and Reincarnations are simple costs on a business ledger....this is the spell the elite would truly fear. Being stuck in a place where their resources couldn't find them for thousands of years, unable to move or do anything....horrific. A lot of paranoia amongst the elite would be about this magic, its likely the "Voldemort" or society, people wouldn't even want to whisper its name just for the stigma.

4) Simulacrum: One of the very key questions here is your interpretation of the clause "The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn". If you literally just see this as the thing can't gain levels....than for all intensive purposes you can just replicate any person. Its practically the dnd version of what you often see in Sci Fi with cloning.....take the brightest researcher in the world and magnify them 1000 fold.

These are the spells that jumped out me as potentially being problems, most especially True Polymorph and Simulacrum. 5e did a pretty good job of getting rid of "downtime + caster = continually escalating power" spells, but these are two remnants I'm debating what to do with, or if I should just run with it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The former (rich people will have multiple 20th level retainers on tap, and assumedly numerous Tier 3 employees.)


These are the spells that jumped out me as potentially being problems, most especially True Polymorph and Simulacrum. 5e did a pretty good job of getting rid of "downtime + caster = continually escalating power" spells, but these are two remnants I'm debating what to do with, or if I should just run with it.

I would run with it personally. The concept is just fascinating from a sociological worldbuilding perspective.

 

[TwoSix]

Still a potential issue though to my mind. The Industrial Revolution was less than 200 years ago.

I mean, I'm definitely assuming the setting will be fairly magitech. More of a Final Fantasy vibe, as opposed to something like Eberron.

Having the setting be a planar metropolis (a la Sigil) is also an option.