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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 9262575" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, then the players scream bloody murder because you're being unfair. It's not that I'm unwilling to apply it's effects fairly, it's that using those effects basically ends the campaign.&nbsp; I'd much rather not have effects in the game that can end the entire campaign based on a single saving throw.&nbsp; And, given that the revised Banishment allows saving throws per round, now it's fair.See, it's not that I'm against magic per se, but, after ten years of play, the warts in the magic system have become rather obvious.&nbsp; This is why they revised the summonings in Tasha's to get rid of the 8 wolves thing which just grinds the game to a screeching halt.&nbsp; This is why you get summoning templates, rather than summoning actual monsters, because a single spell summoning does not need to fulfill the same role in the game as a monster does. Same as how Spiritual Weapon is now getting a revise as well.&nbsp; It's not that it's necessarily overpowered, but, it's just so good at what it does that it becomes the default choice.&nbsp; Why would you not take this spell?&nbsp; Grant me a second attack for an entire combat that does about as much damage as my regular attack, and at range?&nbsp; Ok, yes. I am rather looking forward to 2024e for the fact that they seem to have grasped this fact and have gone some distance toward revising a number of the spells.&nbsp; One would hope that they go a bit further and more of the more egregious spells get revised.And, just to more directly reply to the suggestion of taking the spell out, that's also my entire problem.&nbsp; That solution DOESN'T WORK.&nbsp; Because I have zero interest in policing the game and going through spell after spell after spell.&nbsp; Your response, [USER=6747251]@Micah Sweet[/USER] is the standard response every single time.&nbsp; &quot;Oh, just take out that spell.&nbsp; Just change that other spell.&nbsp; Just do this.&nbsp; Just do that.&quot;&nbsp; No thanks.&nbsp; I have zero interest in that.&nbsp; I don't want to go through spell lists and deal with that.&nbsp; That's what WotC is for.&nbsp; Suggesting that you just &quot;change the game&quot; is never helpful because you are treating the symptom and not the disease.&nbsp; Any single spell is not the problem.&nbsp; The problem is that there are multiple spells, for multiple classes, at multiple levels, compounded with race abilities and feats and multi-classing.&nbsp; It's a systemic problem.&nbsp; And, frankly, one I dealt with by simply banning all full casters from my game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 9262575, member: 22779"] But, then the players scream bloody murder because you're being unfair. It's not that I'm unwilling to apply it's effects fairly, it's that using those effects basically ends the campaign. I'd much rather not have effects in the game that can end the entire campaign based on a single saving throw. And, given that the revised Banishment allows saving throws per round, now it's fair. See, it's not that I'm against magic per se, but, after ten years of play, the warts in the magic system have become rather obvious. This is why they revised the summonings in Tasha's to get rid of the 8 wolves thing which just grinds the game to a screeching halt. This is why you get summoning templates, rather than summoning actual monsters, because a single spell summoning does not need to fulfill the same role in the game as a monster does. Same as how Spiritual Weapon is now getting a revise as well. It's not that it's necessarily overpowered, but, it's just so good at what it does that it becomes the default choice. Why would you not take this spell? Grant me a second attack for an entire combat that does about as much damage as my regular attack, and at range? Ok, yes. I am rather looking forward to 2024e for the fact that they seem to have grasped this fact and have gone some distance toward revising a number of the spells. One would hope that they go a bit further and more of the more egregious spells get revised. And, just to more directly reply to the suggestion of taking the spell out, that's also my entire problem. That solution DOESN'T WORK. Because I have zero interest in policing the game and going through spell after spell after spell. Your response, [USER=6747251]@Micah Sweet[/USER] is the standard response every single time. "Oh, just take out that spell. Just change that other spell. Just do this. Just do that." No thanks. I have zero interest in that. I don't want to go through spell lists and deal with that. That's what WotC is for. Suggesting that you just "change the game" is never helpful because you are treating the symptom and not the disease. Any single spell is not the problem. The problem is that there are multiple spells, for multiple classes, at multiple levels, compounded with race abilities and feats and multi-classing. It's a systemic problem. And, frankly, one I dealt with by simply banning all full casters from my game. [/QUOTE]

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