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What if... D&D had been designed BEFORE The Lord of the Rings!
- Thread starter w_earle_wheeler
- Start date
Hussar
Legend
Interesting. Name three best selling fantasy novels from that period. I don't mean top f the genre, I mean novels that made a best seller list in the US during that period.
Guess what? Fantasy doesn't even scratch the top 10 in that decade you picked.
Until about 1980 ish, fantasy is a tiny little sub genre of SF.
prosfilaes
Adventurer
WayneLigon said:
Where are these numbers coming from? I seriously doubt anyone could give an accurate count of the number of copies of Romeo and Juliet just printed last year, much less accurate numbers of all fiction books over the last couple centuries.
Wikipedia says The Valley of the Dolls has sold "more than 20 million copies", and says Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince has sold 20 million copies. The BBC says that "The series of books went past the 300 million mark thanks to the publication of the sixth wizardly tale, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince", which averages 50 million a book.
Where is this from? From the AskMen article, I assume? It strikes me as a particularly meaningless list, in that the McGuffey Readers, the World Almanac and the book of World Records are more serials that change content yearly and are rebought yearly for new content. I also suspect it was compiled haphazardly from numbers easily available to an American audience; most of the numbers are for American books, and not terribly recent ones.
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Hussar
Legend
Probably true Profilaes, but, it still doesn't change the fact that the LOTR likely doesn't even scratch the top 100 as far as total books sold, which is the original point.
As much as I love fantasy lit, one still has to realize that our personal reading habits are certainly not universal. It hasn't been until the last 20 years or so that fantasy became commercially viable. Heck, numerous golden age fantasy authors have stated that the only way they could get published was to write under the guise of SF.
But, back to the original topic, I wonder if the idea of campaign development would be much different in this game? Tolkein (more or less) grandfathered the fantasy idea of creating an entire world from scratch. While Conan does have a unique setting, it is still meant to be Earth. Many or most of the cultures are borrowed directly from real world cultures. Even to the point where Conan "discovers" the New World at the end of the series.
Prior to Tolkein, most fantasy, like Lovecraft and others, are set in the real world. A fantasy version of the real world, but the real world nonetheless.
As much as I love fantasy lit, one still has to realize that our personal reading habits are certainly not universal. It hasn't been until the last 20 years or so that fantasy became commercially viable. Heck, numerous golden age fantasy authors have stated that the only way they could get published was to write under the guise of SF.
But, back to the original topic, I wonder if the idea of campaign development would be much different in this game? Tolkein (more or less) grandfathered the fantasy idea of creating an entire world from scratch. While Conan does have a unique setting, it is still meant to be Earth. Many or most of the cultures are borrowed directly from real world cultures. Even to the point where Conan "discovers" the New World at the end of the series.
Prior to Tolkein, most fantasy, like Lovecraft and others, are set in the real world. A fantasy version of the real world, but the real world nonetheless.
Hussar
Legend
Found a (possibly) decent website that lists best sellers by decade.
Scroll down to the bottom past the Maugham stuff.
Whoops, American Bestsellers. Sigh.
The interesting thing is, you don't even see fantasy on the list 1977 with Tolkein's The Silmarillion (so I guess the list does have Brit authors.) while The Hobbit and The LOTR don't even break any of the lists. You see a couple of SF titles before then - The Andromeda Strain caught my eye, but that's about it. 1982 you see Stephen Donaldson. 1983 you see one of McCaffery's Dragon series.
INteresting
Scroll down to the bottom past the Maugham stuff.
Whoops, American Bestsellers. Sigh.
The interesting thing is, you don't even see fantasy on the list 1977 with Tolkein's The Silmarillion (so I guess the list does have Brit authors.) while The Hobbit and The LOTR don't even break any of the lists. You see a couple of SF titles before then - The Andromeda Strain caught my eye, but that's about it. 1982 you see Stephen Donaldson. 1983 you see one of McCaffery's Dragon series.
INteresting
w_earle_wheeler
First Post
My copy of Tales Before Tolkien: The Roots of Modern Fantasy came in the mail today. It is billed as "Classic stories that inspired the author of The Lord of the Rings." I've heard some complaints that the stories in this collection really aren't the inspirational stories for Tolkein, but as they are fantasy and pre-date the good professor's popular works, I think it will serve nicely for my little project.
1812 "The Elves" by Ludwig Tiek
1867 "The Golden Key" by George MacDonald
1869 "Puss-Cat Mew" by E. H. Knatchbull-Hugessen
1887 "The Griffon and the Minor Canon" by Frank R. Stockton
1888 "The Demon Pope" by Richard Garnett
1890 "The Story of Sigurd" retold by Andrew Lang
1914 "The Folk of the Mountain Door" by William Morris
1896 "Black Heart and White Heart: A Zulu Idyll" by H. Rider Haggard
1899 "The Dragon Tamers" by E. Nesbit
1899 "The Far Islands" by John Buchan
1923 "The Drawn Arrows" by Clemence Houseman
1905 "The Enchanted Buffalo" by L. Frank Baum
1911 "Chu-bu and Sheemish" by Lord Dunsany
1919 "The Baumoff Explosive" by William Hope Hodgson
1915 "The Regent of the North" by Kenneth Morris
1917 "The Coming of Terror" by Arthur Machen
1919 "The Elf Trap" by Francis Stevens
1922 "The Thin Queen of Elfhame" by James Branch Cabell
1926 "The Woman of the Wood" by A. Merritt
1927 "Golithos the Ogre" by E.A. Wyke-Smith
1930s "A Christmas Play" by David Lindsay
1812 "The Elves" by Ludwig Tiek
1867 "The Golden Key" by George MacDonald
1869 "Puss-Cat Mew" by E. H. Knatchbull-Hugessen
1887 "The Griffon and the Minor Canon" by Frank R. Stockton
1888 "The Demon Pope" by Richard Garnett
1890 "The Story of Sigurd" retold by Andrew Lang
1914 "The Folk of the Mountain Door" by William Morris
1896 "Black Heart and White Heart: A Zulu Idyll" by H. Rider Haggard
1899 "The Dragon Tamers" by E. Nesbit
1899 "The Far Islands" by John Buchan
1923 "The Drawn Arrows" by Clemence Houseman
1905 "The Enchanted Buffalo" by L. Frank Baum
1911 "Chu-bu and Sheemish" by Lord Dunsany
1919 "The Baumoff Explosive" by William Hope Hodgson
1915 "The Regent of the North" by Kenneth Morris
1917 "The Coming of Terror" by Arthur Machen
1919 "The Elf Trap" by Francis Stevens
1922 "The Thin Queen of Elfhame" by James Branch Cabell
1926 "The Woman of the Wood" by A. Merritt
1927 "Golithos the Ogre" by E.A. Wyke-Smith
1930s "A Christmas Play" by David Lindsay
SpiralBound
Explorer
Perhaps there would have been a much stronger romantic theme to the adventures and setting. More heavily influenced by children's fantasies like Mother Goose and The Brothers Grimm, whose stories combine supernatural, macabre and romantic elements. Perhaps "D & D" would be "Damsels & Dragons"?
From a mechanics standpoint, I suspect that incorporating a random element into the system would have been much less prominent. You certainly wouldn't have such a heavy reliance on the stereotypical bag of dice. Perhaps one or two six-siders used communally? Maybe a single spinner? Using a random element within almost every event mechanic may even have been omited from the game altogether.
One question about the original premise of this thread... It appears that most posts are running on the assumption that Tolkien simply never bothered to write his novels or perhaps even he hadn't been born. However, this idea isn't specifically stated in the original post, just the "what if" of pen and paper roleplaying being invented before The Lord of The Rings was published. While I'm greatly enjoying everyones posts about a version of RPGs without any Tolkien influence, wouldn't his influence have affected an existing RPG game once his books had been published?
Perhaps though since his concepts and literary tropes wouldn't have had "ground floor" enception access, their influence would have been different and much less prominent. Sort of equivalent to how influencial the actual official Lord of the Rings RPG is on the roleplaying industry as a whole. While it has it's followers, even things like Vampire, Star Wars, and other non-tolkien-style fantasy are more popular than it is, let alone the popularity collossus that D & D is within RPG circles.
From a mechanics standpoint, I suspect that incorporating a random element into the system would have been much less prominent. You certainly wouldn't have such a heavy reliance on the stereotypical bag of dice. Perhaps one or two six-siders used communally? Maybe a single spinner? Using a random element within almost every event mechanic may even have been omited from the game altogether.
One question about the original premise of this thread... It appears that most posts are running on the assumption that Tolkien simply never bothered to write his novels or perhaps even he hadn't been born. However, this idea isn't specifically stated in the original post, just the "what if" of pen and paper roleplaying being invented before The Lord of The Rings was published. While I'm greatly enjoying everyones posts about a version of RPGs without any Tolkien influence, wouldn't his influence have affected an existing RPG game once his books had been published?
Perhaps though since his concepts and literary tropes wouldn't have had "ground floor" enception access, their influence would have been different and much less prominent. Sort of equivalent to how influencial the actual official Lord of the Rings RPG is on the roleplaying industry as a whole. While it has it's followers, even things like Vampire, Star Wars, and other non-tolkien-style fantasy are more popular than it is, let alone the popularity collossus that D & D is within RPG circles.
Nyeshet
First Post
This is probably a silly question, but have we ever determined when D&D came about in this pre-Tolkien world? Some seem to be arguing just a year or two before tolkien published The Hobbit, while others seem to be arguing the turn of the century (~1900). 1900, 1910, 1920, 1930 - all of these would result in differing styles of the game, I think.
1930: The Great Depression has recently begun. The gild has fallen off to reveal the lead beneath. Half a generation after the Great War, called by some 'The War to End All Wars' - the world is in the grips of a vast economic downswing. The wealthier manage to float through the worst of it, but that merely exaserbates the differences between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. How would this have effected the views of those constructing a D&D style game, I wonder? I would think that for the game to succeed at all it would have to be markedly inexpensive. When people wonder where their next meal will come from, they generally don't worry as much about buying a form of entertainment - even if it would distract them from their troubles for a while.
1920: The first world war had just ended. I can see a game re-enacting such a scenario in a fantasy setting, so the Bloodwar - or a similar war on the Prime, albeit far more brief - is well within what they might consider when constructing the setting. This is also a time when new theories are coming about in science, new discoveries are being made regarding ancient history, etc. Fanciful constructs based upon these are likely, perhaps. This was also known to some as the 'Gilded Age'. There seemed to be plenty to go around, but that was just on the surface. Also, Russia recently underwent a rather notable change (or would soon, I forget the exact year). The Prime of a game created at such a time may be one in which recent govenmental changes have occurred - or could occur. A place where wealth seems common and for the taking, but crime is more rampant. (The mafia, I think, was rather active at this time in various locales.) Indeed, the heroes could end up being crime fighters. It certainly seemed popular in many of the pulps and comics of the era. As I recall, even heroes living in / near jungles were often involved in crime fighting (The Phantom, for instance).
1910: The first World War has not yet begun. The idea of a war that could span a continent and spill out onto multiple others would likely not be seen in the game - thus perhaps no Blood War. Also, while flying machines exist, they are quite rare, and blimps, hot air balloons, etc are more commonly known - especially in Europe. Automobiles are rather new and have not yet predominantly replaced horses in most cities, although they are becoming more common with each passing year due to the use of the Assembly Line. I can see some game designers purposefully looking away from such, towards an earlier era without such gagets.
1900: The turn of the century. As I recall, the Napoleanic wars are long over and a sort of tense peace currently exists. New discoveries are being made in Egypt and elsewhere regarding ancient civilizations, so perhaps tomb / ruin crawling would replace dungeon crawling. Imagine an Indiana Jones movie without automobilies, planes, etc and you might have a good idea as to the feel of such a world. Note that some areas of the world are still unexplored - deep jungles in the conjo and the amazon, the central regions of most major deserts, some of the more mountainous regions or the forests of the more northern regions. As I recall - and I could easily be wrong - not even Antarctica has been overly explored. I forget exactly when the South pole was 'found'. The world still has its mysteries, and exploration could be a major part of any quest. Note that mechanized flying machines do not yet exist, although hot air balloons (and blimps?) do exist. Automobiles are rare - in many areas more of a novelty than something one might expect to be common in the future. Phones are becoming more common, but telegraphs remain common, and phones do not yet make calls across major distances (across oceans, across continents, etc).
So, the year in which the game is conceived could have lasting impact on its nature. Different feels could exist - not just based upon common fantasy authors of the time, but also due to differing levels of technology and differing social situations.
So, my question remains. When, exactly, are we arguing for the creation of the game?
1930: The Great Depression has recently begun. The gild has fallen off to reveal the lead beneath. Half a generation after the Great War, called by some 'The War to End All Wars' - the world is in the grips of a vast economic downswing. The wealthier manage to float through the worst of it, but that merely exaserbates the differences between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. How would this have effected the views of those constructing a D&D style game, I wonder? I would think that for the game to succeed at all it would have to be markedly inexpensive. When people wonder where their next meal will come from, they generally don't worry as much about buying a form of entertainment - even if it would distract them from their troubles for a while.
1920: The first world war had just ended. I can see a game re-enacting such a scenario in a fantasy setting, so the Bloodwar - or a similar war on the Prime, albeit far more brief - is well within what they might consider when constructing the setting. This is also a time when new theories are coming about in science, new discoveries are being made regarding ancient history, etc. Fanciful constructs based upon these are likely, perhaps. This was also known to some as the 'Gilded Age'. There seemed to be plenty to go around, but that was just on the surface. Also, Russia recently underwent a rather notable change (or would soon, I forget the exact year). The Prime of a game created at such a time may be one in which recent govenmental changes have occurred - or could occur. A place where wealth seems common and for the taking, but crime is more rampant. (The mafia, I think, was rather active at this time in various locales.) Indeed, the heroes could end up being crime fighters. It certainly seemed popular in many of the pulps and comics of the era. As I recall, even heroes living in / near jungles were often involved in crime fighting (The Phantom, for instance).
1910: The first World War has not yet begun. The idea of a war that could span a continent and spill out onto multiple others would likely not be seen in the game - thus perhaps no Blood War. Also, while flying machines exist, they are quite rare, and blimps, hot air balloons, etc are more commonly known - especially in Europe. Automobiles are rather new and have not yet predominantly replaced horses in most cities, although they are becoming more common with each passing year due to the use of the Assembly Line. I can see some game designers purposefully looking away from such, towards an earlier era without such gagets.
1900: The turn of the century. As I recall, the Napoleanic wars are long over and a sort of tense peace currently exists. New discoveries are being made in Egypt and elsewhere regarding ancient civilizations, so perhaps tomb / ruin crawling would replace dungeon crawling. Imagine an Indiana Jones movie without automobilies, planes, etc and you might have a good idea as to the feel of such a world. Note that some areas of the world are still unexplored - deep jungles in the conjo and the amazon, the central regions of most major deserts, some of the more mountainous regions or the forests of the more northern regions. As I recall - and I could easily be wrong - not even Antarctica has been overly explored. I forget exactly when the South pole was 'found'. The world still has its mysteries, and exploration could be a major part of any quest. Note that mechanized flying machines do not yet exist, although hot air balloons (and blimps?) do exist. Automobiles are rare - in many areas more of a novelty than something one might expect to be common in the future. Phones are becoming more common, but telegraphs remain common, and phones do not yet make calls across major distances (across oceans, across continents, etc).
So, the year in which the game is conceived could have lasting impact on its nature. Different feels could exist - not just based upon common fantasy authors of the time, but also due to differing levels of technology and differing social situations.
So, my question remains. When, exactly, are we arguing for the creation of the game?
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