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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9278717" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I mostly agree here. Wizard gets a bit odd though. The idea of studying magic is very thematic, but it isn't as strong I think as you may think it is. Case in point, many of the most famous Wizards could be argued to not be wizards (Gandalf is a Celestial, Merlin speaks to spirits and is half-demon, Dumbledore was born with magic powers like a sorcerer) This isn't a huge point, just that I would argue Wizard is as generic as you can get for a spellcaster.Maybe. Each warlock can be built very differently, and it could be simply a generic grouping. Kind of like how the One DnD team initially attempted to make warriors, mages, ect, the "Warlock" can be a class group, which acts as a catch-all for "patron granted magic"See, to me, they have just as much of a story as the wizard. And this is kind of the issue with the arcane classes. As story tropes, the three are practically interchangeable. Mechanically we can see a difference, but the stories almost feel incomplete without each other. I think, from what you have proposed, sub-classes and class groups are the best way to resolve this. But there is always going to be overlap. A tiefling warlock who patron is their fiendish parent is going to blur that sorcerer and warlock line and may, in universe, be best expressed as unique classes.One DnD would have fixed this. And I am still mad they removed it. I like the idea of Bard being the FIRST magic users, and that their magic, which can be found through study of the world and music and story, is the baseline all other magic riffed off of. But, also, I think this is also fine. The bard is a flexible class, and sub-classes are where that is defined.This can be rough. Especially when you also need to ask about nature clerics vs druids. I solved this by saying that there were no gods of nature, no gods of magic, and that the role of "evil god" was handled by the other classes of Powers. The moment it is the Gods vs the Archdevils and Archdemons and Archfey and Elder Evils then the role of the cleric becomes much more coherent. Another thing you could do is that the System doesn't care about the gods. You worship a god? These are the powers the system gives you. After all, you don't get different sets of abilities from serving two Kings that fight, so why would you for two gods?The subclass is where the narrative is, but I think you are being too harsh here. A Fighter, even at level 1, is as good as any grunt in the army. They are actually very good at what they do, compared to the common baker or merchant who pretends to fight. And the Rogue is much the same way. Sure, expertise in a skill is something that can be generic, but the sneak attack and the coded language does create a narrative that the only classes don't really have. They are a bit generically "the expert" type of archetype, but by the time you hit level 2 it is solidly locked in what these people are like.</blockquote>

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