D&D General What if Hit Points were the currency of the game rules?

[FrogReaver]

This sounds a lot to me similar to the SWSE Vitality/Wounds system. IMO, the best ever.

In the past I've argued quite hotly against that system but if what i'm describing is what it's doing then I can see it. Stamina becomes the universal resource - which is a good thing. This provides classes with quite a nice dynamic split between offensive prowess and defensive prowess (something 5e has done very well for many classes).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Did it require stamina resources to cast spells and attack? Were there defensive maneuvers that ultimately resulted in less stamina loss than just taking the hit on your stamina?

Well, it was a long time ago, like 20 years, but in a nutshell it was this:

Vitality = HP
Wounds = CON

Wounds were the universal thing. All creatures had Wounds, but not everything got Vitality. Your mook-types were no Vitality, for instance.

When your Vitality was gone, damage went to Wounds and you were fatigued (-2 to AC, attacks, et.c IIRC) and you could fall unconscious.

Expenditures:

Casting a spell: 1 HP/ spell level
Making an attack/using a skill: 1 HP
Moving was no cost.

When your HP was gone (we continued to use the term HP instead of Vitality, just for ease of familiarity), and you were fatigued, you could continued to attack/cast/etc. but with the -2 penalty so you weren't as effective. Casting spells requires a check to not fall unconscious (as if you had been hit by an attack).

If I were to change this for 5E, I would use a lot of the HD for features. 1 HD for second wind, 2 HD for action surge, etc. But I would have to look into things a lot more before committing to any of it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, it was a long time ago, like 20 years, but in a nutshell it was this:

Vitality = HP
Wounds = CON

Wounds were the universal thing. All creatures had Wounds, but not everything got Vitality. Your mook-types were no Vitality, for instance.

When your Vitality was gone, damage went to Wounds and you were fatigued (-2 to AC, attacks, et.c IIRC) and you could fall unconscious.

Expenditures:

Casting a spell: 1 HP/ spell level
Making an attack/using a skill: 1 HP
Moving was no cost.

When your HP was gone (we continued to use the term HP instead of Vitality, just for ease of familiarity), and you were fatigued, you could continued to attack/cast/etc. but with the -2 penalty so you weren't as effective. Casting spells requires a check to not fall unconscious (as if you had been hit by an attack).

If I were to change this for 5E, I would use a lot of the HD for features. 1 HD for second wind, 2 HD for action surge, etc. But I would have to look into things a lot more before committing to any of it.

Thanks. Sounds similar to what I'm talking about but different enough that I think it's just that particular implementation that doesn't jive with me.

To me there's a big conceptual difference in having wounds as purely physical and instead just pulling stamina out of traditional hp and having it be a "universal" resource.

Curious: I assume wounds values stayed fairly low compared to stamina values in the game?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks. Sounds similar to what I'm talking about but different enough that I think it's just that particular implementation that doesn't jive with me.

To me there's a big conceptual difference in having wounds as purely physical and instead just pulling stamina out of traditional hp and having it be a "universal" resource.

Curious: I assume wounds values stayed fairly low compared to stamina values in the game?

Sure. I figured it sounded close but not not quite the same.

One of the things I liked a lot about when we did that was the idea that healing magic restored vitality (aka HP) first, basically it was recharging your character. Once full, spill over would restore Wounds, but until then you could still be fatigued (tired and really wanting rest), but restored enough to keep up the good fight so to say.

Managing spellcasting became an exercise in balance/risk assessment. It also allowed a lot more low-level spells to be cast by higher level casters at less effective cost. Such a system also makes things like the damage-causing cantrips close to unnecessary.

If I did a modern adaptation, you could keep the damage-causing cantrips for 0 HP costs and even with fatigued, allow them without the check to remain conscious.

 

[JeffB]

The issue here is that you are saying that depleting 1 thing - stamina will imply the fighter is almost dead (the next hit will kill him) - but survivability (hp) can also include luck and it's hard to believe that was depleted by swinging the sword.

So why is the fighter almost dead when he still has his luck?

I'm not sure if you are arguing for the sake of it, or what- but I state he was also "off his game", not just exhausted.

HP in D&D have always represented a combination of factors- it's an abstraction. My proposed system is no different.

If you don't like it, that's OK.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not sure if you are arguing for the sake of it, or what-

And I'm not sure if you are just being offensive for the sake of it, or what-

but I state he was also "off his game", not just exhausted.

Presumably he was "off his game" because he was exhausted. If you meant something more than that it wasn't clear.

HP in D&D have always represented a combination of factors- it's an abstraction. My proposed system is no different.

Yes HP is an abstraction that is a combination of many factors. Not sure what that has to do with criticizing a particular implementation of HP.

If you don't like it, that's OK.

Same to you buddy.

 

[Laurefindel]

A few months ago, I came across a Dungeon World hack that was designed for Kids and people new to RPGs

The "Dungeons RPG" free download can be found HERE . It has proven itself in providing a non intimidating RPG experience for my wife and young daughter where other games such as very basic versions of D&D have failed. But on to the main point-

In "Dungeons"- Hit Points are not just traditional hit points but are also "effort" used to fuel die rolls, spells, etc. For example-. The spellcasters have "at wills" but spend hit points to fuel more powerful spells. Fighters can spend a HP to fuel great feats of strength , or a Thief on "sneaky" abilities (and the HP provides a bonus to the roll that will eliminate complete failure). Druids spend a HP to shapeshift, etc etc.

Personally- in play I find it far more interesting than typical "resource management" like Vancian Casting, or per X rest, etc. It's much more simple, and the resource pool is much more valuable to players and raises the dramatic tension "I can spend a HP now to make sure I do X, but I'm going to be lower than I want for that fight I know is coming"

So what do folks think about a D&D game where class abilities/maneuvers/feats/stunts/ spells etc were all fueled by ONE easy to track resource- Hit Points? Then certainly the "idea" of hit points as drive/luck/endurance and their loss and quick return upon resting would make compete sense in the context of the game (though the term "hit" still does not).

P.S- Happy New Year all!

We tried playing with something similar once. Granted, it was 3ed and lacked a hit dice / short rest mechanics, but our observations were the following.

- by transcribing spell slots and powers into hp, either casters had a lot less spellcasting capacity, of martial suddenly had a lot more hp depending on the conversion unit. The higher the levels, the bigger the discrepancies were because of linear hp vs quadratic spell slots.

- taking damage meant casting less spells. That could be cool because it would force casters to play defensively but in effect, it was always a guessing game whether spending hp on defensive spells and ressources would addup to more lost hp than damage from monsters in the first place. That had a lot of impact on the conversion of spell slots to hp and hp to spells.

- healing could only distribute remaining hp among the group. Otherwise, more hp meant more healing spells which meant more hp which meant more healing spells etc. Hp conservation could be cool, but it changed D&D paradigm too much for our taste. Hit dice and long rest would mitigate that a bit.

- depending on conversion unit, casters would end-up having more hp than martial and could “tank” more and better. Not a problem in itself, but weird within D&D’s paradigm.

there was more, but that’s what I remember of it. Basically, casting spells became a sort of insurance against damage; spend some now to try to avoid losing more later.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

My first thought was "if they're a currency, they can be exchanged between players".

Well... surely you don't mean that literally.

 

[Xeviat]

The worry of the death spiral is real here. But spells already kiiiiiiiiindaaaa work like this. Many classes can use spells for healing, defense, or attacking, so that means spell slots are a liquid resource that could be more HP or could be used for damage. Some classes have more of this resource and less base HP, some class have less of this resource and more base HP.

When I played the first d20 Star Wars system, it used vitality points for using force powers. I never wanted to use my force powers because I didn't want to get knocked out easier. I really shouldn't have been playing a Jedi, but the GM wanted us to all be Jedi because reasons.

 

[Garthanos]

The worry of the death spiral is real here. But spells already kiiiiiiiiindaaaa work like this. Many classes can use spells for healing, defense, or attacking, so that means spell slots are a liquid resource that could be more HP or could be used for damage. Some classes have more of this resource and less base HP, some class have less of this resource and more base HP.

Yeh its in there already just not so explicit or universal. And I am looking at an Exertion Meta-maneuver for the fighter that is basically make a con save or lose X hit points to gain an extra attack or apply a CS die maneuver to your subsequent attack this turn ie explicit.