What if there were also ELDER Titans...?

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Creating a large number of giants for future material. However, I also want to add Elder Titans into the mix (for the current giants as well as the new ones I am creating), but I am having trouble determining the best level jump for these monsters. There are two main possibilities.

1. Keep the Elder Titans close in level to their respective Giants & Titan 'cousins'.

At best maybe a 3-level jump from Titan, but also make the creature a Solo opponent.

e.g. Fire Giant = L18, Fire Titan = L21 (Elite), Elder Fire Titan = L24 (Solo)

2. Have the Elder Titans jump roughly a tier (10 levels or so) with the Giants now also represented as Minions and Elder Titans represented as Standard monsters.

e.g. Fire Giant = L26 (Minion), Fire Titan = L25, Elder Fire Titan = L28 (Solo)

The first method seems to really undervalue what the Elder Titan (classically) would represent, but the second requires two set of stat blocks for the regular Giants and Titans.

A third idea might be to parallel the Elder Titan with certain Abominations (Amilictli, Phaethon, Xixecal) which seem to fit the profile. That idea would probably favour the 'Elder Titans' in and around the low 30's (although I am guesstimating what WotC might do with Abominations like the Xixecal.

Or similarly perhaps like Primordials such as Rorn (Level 33 Solo monster).

So I guess what I am asking is that if you were to want Elder Titans in your campaign, where would you place them?

 

[Mirtek]

Dawn titans have already been mentioned in 4e lore, I guess it won't be too long before we see one of them statted.

As for their power level, I suggest to keep them below 32nd level solo lest they get too close to their primordial masters (although with Yeenoghu and Baphomet we already have two primordials at 28th level)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Mirtek!

Dawn titans have already been mentioned in 4e lore, I guess it won't be too long before we see one of them statted.

Where was the name Dawn Titans mentioned? Kinda cool.

As for their power level, I suggest to keep them below 32nd level solo lest they get too close to their primordial masters (although with Yeenoghu and Baphomet we already have two primordials at 28th level)

Well the level limit really isn't that much of an issue since I'll be creating rules for Legendary (31-40) and Immortal (41-50) Tiers. I just want to do the monsters justice.

Also I think the term Primordial covers a lot of ground.

 

[Animus]

You're working on a 4E Immortals Handbook I see. Very cool. I'd be interested in seeing it even if I never got to actually play.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Animus!

You're working on a 4E Immortals Handbook I see. Very cool. I'd be interested in seeing it even if I never got to actually play.

Well my problem has ever been one of getting the stuff I'm working on to a finished state (while juggling a part time job). At the moment I'm concentrating on two smaller pdfs/books (maybe 32-48 pages or so each)...

1) Gods & Monsters ~ Astral Plane: Epic Tier (Monsters from about Levels 21-36 ish)
2) Immortals Index ~ Bronze Age: Canaanite Mythology

...by then I should have all my 4E Immortals rules sorted and I can start putting that book together, on paper it looks like a larger book depending on how many portfolios* I include (I'm striving for 14 portfolios).

*Portfolios replacing Classes above Level 30.

3) (4E) Immortals Handbook

After that I have a few adventures planned.

4) L0* "No Chance In Hell" Level 30 adventure
5) L1 "Against the Reptile God" Levels 31-35 adventure...this will probably be released in three pdfs or 'acts'.

*Legendary 0

So thats the general order of play. I hope to have the writing of Gods & Monsters at least (and maybe the Immortals Index as well) finished by the end of May, then I'll commission my artist(s).

Best case scenario I might have the 4E Immortals Handbook ready by the end of the year. But take that with a pinch of salt.

 

[KarinsDad]

I would consider #1, but make them 6 levels higher. The Elder Storm Titan would then be level 33.

Also, make them Elites.

There are too many Solos in the higher levels as is. People want to play fewer solo encounters (due to the grind), not more. IMO.

A challenging encounter for a level 24 party could then be a level 27 Elder Fire Titan and a bunch of level 21 Fire Titans.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Karinsdad!

I would consider #1, but make them 6 levels higher. The Elder Storm Titan would then be level 33.

Also, make them Elites.

There are too many Solos in the higher levels as is. People want to play fewer solo encounters (due to the grind), not more. IMO.

Thats true. However, it looks like WotC might be rethinking hit points for Elites and Solos (In MM2; x1.5 and x4 respectively), as well as upping their damage output (in a bid to reduce the grind).

A challenging encounter for a level 24 party could then be a level 27 Elder Fire Titan and a bunch of level 21 Fire Titans.

Doesn't that then fall into the same trap you wish to avoid though?

An Elite Elder Titan and a bunch of Elite Titans?

Would a better idea not be to convert the giants (using XP as a guide) so that a Fire Giant was a Level 26 Minion, a Fire Titan was a Level 25 (Standard) opponent and the Elder Fire Titan was a Solo monster in and around Level 25-28?

This way you have a different dynamic to the Giant - Titan relationship (Standard - Elite), with the Titan - Elder Titan relationship.

 

[KarinsDad]

Thats true. However, it looks like WotC might be rethinking hit points for Elites and Solos (In MM2; x1.5 and x4 respectively), as well as upping their damage output (in a bid to reduce the grind).

Hope they put MM1 back out with the changes if they do.

Even so, there are still too many Solos at Epic levels. 1 in 5. Granted, there are a lot of Elites there as well, 1 in 3. But, there should be more Standards than Elites and more Elites than Solos.

Doesn't that then fall into the same trap you wish to avoid though?

An Elite Elder Titan and a bunch of Elite Titans?

Would a better idea not be to convert the giants (using XP as a guide) so that a Fire Giant was a Level 26 Minion, a Fire Titan was a Level 25 (Standard) opponent and the Elder Fire Titan was a Solo monster in and around Level 25-28?

This way you have a different dynamic to the Giant - Titan relationship (Standard - Elite), with the Titan - Elder Titan relationship.

I'm actually not concerned with that aspect of it. In the example given, the level 27 Elite and 4 level 21 Elites would be an n+2 encounter for five level 24 PCs. You shouldn't get caught up too much on trying to find a balance there.

For example, your solution #2 where you have Minion Fire Giants is actually a fairly poor idea (not just because it involves 2 types of the same Fire Giant, but because minion Fire Giants should be an oxymoron), all in the name of keeping that aspect of monster role separate (i.e. minion/standard/elite or standard/elite/solo). There should never be a minion Giant. The very idea is purely a game mechanic induced concept and not a proper monster induced concept.

Instead, you should concentrate on the ideas as to why you want Elder Titans in the first place.

To me, it seems like you want them as a place holder between Giants/Titans and Primordials. So, I would not make them considerably more powerful than Titans, but not quite as powerful as Primordials. 6 levels like I suggested might be good, but 4 or 5 levels might also be good.

And, I would work more on other aspects of their role instead of Minion vs. Standard vs. Elite. It's more important to get the Artillery vs. Brute vs. Controller vs. Lurker vs. Skirmisher vs. Soldier aspect of their roll correct for what you are trying to accomplish within a given giant type. And, you should probably throw Leader onto all of the Elders.


The concept of Elite vs. Standard to me is no big deal. Half the number of actions per round, but better defenses and more hit points allows for more durability and more rounds of fighting. Titans (and especially Elder Titans) should have a TON of durability. They should be scary because they are so elemental. Savage, unpredictable, and they just won't die. The players should view Elder Titans as monsterously huge (i.e. Gargantuan if you decide to go that route) and undamageable. Not that they cannot be damaged, but it should seem to the players that they are unstoppable killing machines. ELDER TITANS.

Elites are not a problem. They are just a different modifier to the role of monster. Having a bunch of low level elites and one or two high level elites in an encounter is fine as long as their other roles are different. In the case of a Fire Titans, they are soldier. Shock troops. So, an Elder Fire Titan should be the Wizard or Cleric to their Fighter. It should be a Controller or possibly an Artillery or possibly some other role.

Don't limit yourself by getting caught up with the idea that since a Hill Giant is a brute and an Earth Titan is a brute, that an Elder Earth Titan needs to be brute too. Like the phrase Elder implies, they should not just be bigger versions of the others. Instead, they should be special versions of the others. Smarter. Stronger. More capable. At least IMO.

Look at the Primordials for good ideas on the role direction a given Elder Titan should take.

 

[Mirtek]

Hey there Mirtek!

Hi

Where was the name Dawn Titans mentioned? Kinda cool.

The names of the titan lords, Thrym, Surtur, Hrydd (Stormqueen) are mentioned in Worlds and Monsters and the Manual of the Planes. I don't recall at the moment where I read the term Dawn Titans to describe these firstborn titanlords.

 

[KarinsDad]

The names of the titan lords, Thrym, Surtur, Hrydd (Stormqueen) are mentioned in Worlds and Monsters and the Manual of the Planes. I don't recall at the moment where I read the term Dawn Titans to describe these firstborn titanlords.

Yes, these three titan kings (queen) should obviously be solos (I think Hrydd is called Ysaga in Manual of the Planes). And it would be great if their stats were created.