What if there were also ELDER Titans...?

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Karinsdad!

Thanks for the long reply.

Hope they put MM1 back out with the changes if they do.

Me too.

Even so, there are still too many Solos at Epic levels. 1 in 5. Granted, there are a lot of Elites there as well, 1 in 3. But, there should be more Standards than Elites and more Elites than Solos.

True, but I think you have to look at the responsibility of various monsters to judge whether they should be Minions, Elites, Solo Monsters or whatever. That will define your monsters core persona. But it could be 10-20 levels higher that same monster (or monsters very similar) might well only represent a lesser threat.

For instance an Evistro might be a Level 6 Brute, but it could also be a Level 14 Minion.

I'm actually not concerned with that aspect of it. In the example given, the level 27 Elite and 4 level 21 Elites would be an n+2 encounter for five level 24 PCs. You shouldn't get caught up too much on trying to find a balance there.

Yes but you specifically mentioned that there were too many Elites and Solo opponents already, thats the reaosn I picked up on it.

For example, your solution #2 where you have Minion Fire Giants is actually a fairly poor idea (not just because it involves 2 types of the same Fire Giant, but because minion Fire Giants should be an oxymoron), all in the name of keeping that aspect of monster role separate (i.e. minion/standard/elite or standard/elite/solo). There should never be a minion Giant. The very idea is purely a game mechanic induced concept and not a proper monster induced concept.

Thats an interesting take, but I am not sure I agree. To me, all power is relative. A monster that is perhaps a Solo threat for a Level 10 party could represent a mere minion for a Level 27 party.

Instead, you should concentrate on the ideas as to why you want Elder Titans in the first place.

To me, it seems like you want them as a place holder between Giants/Titans and Primordials. So, I would not make them considerably more powerful than Titans, but not quite as powerful as Primordials. 6 levels like I suggested might be good, but 4 or 5 levels might also be good.

Thats depends on your definition of Primordials, many of whom have been touted as more powerful than the Gods - the Gods teamwork led to the Primordials downfall. As I mentioned in a previous post, the term Primordial covers a lot of ground, some weaker than deities, some on a par with deities and others more powerful than the deities. The latter I see as the true Primordials. I'm still in the process of determining their Levels but I currently have them pencilled in at between Levels 42-56 (or possibly 47-61).

Think of it as maybe Lesser Primordial 27-36, Primordial 37-46, Greater Primordial 47-56.

The Elder Titans might fall under the category of Lesser Primordials.

And, I would work more on other aspects of their role instead of Minion vs. Standard vs. Elite. It's more important to get the Artillery vs. Brute vs. Controller vs. Lurker vs. Skirmisher vs. Soldier aspect of their roll correct for what you are trying to accomplish within a given giant type. And, you should probably throw Leader onto all of the Elders.

Well I think to that end you also have to look at whom those Giants interact with. So you don't need every Giant to have multiple roles because they might have slave races (Azer), beasts (Hell Hounds) and allies (Fire Archons) to shore up any weaknesses in creating balanced encounters.

The concept of Elite vs. Standard to me is no big deal. Half the number of actions per round, but better defenses and more hit points allows for more durability and more rounds of fighting. Titans (and especially Elder Titans) should have a TON of durability. They should be scary because they are so elemental. Savage, unpredictable, and they just won't die. The players should view Elder Titans as monsterously huge (i.e. Gargantuan if you decide to go that route) and undamageable. Not that they cannot be damaged, but it should seem to the players that they are unstoppable killing machines. ELDER TITANS.

Certainly this should be true when you battle the Elder Titans for the first time. But it could be that for Immortals those same Elder Titans may only represent minions.

Elites are not a problem. They are just a different modifier to the role of monster. Having a bunch of low level elites and one or two high level elites in an encounter is fine as long as their other roles are different. In the case of a Fire Titans, they are soldier. Shock troops. So, an Elder Fire Titan should be the Wizard or Cleric to their Fighter. It should be a Controller or possibly an Artillery or possibly some other role.

I'll try not to. I have 15 new Giant types to outline, so I am sure I will cover a good range of roles both in terms of different giant types and hopefully the same giant types.

Don't limit yourself by getting caught up with the idea that since a Hill Giant is a brute and an Earth Titan is a brute, that an Elder Earth Titan needs to be brute too. Like the phrase Elder implies, they should not just be bigger versions of the others. Instead, they should be special versions of the others. Smarter. Stronger. More capable. At least IMO.

Absolutely.

Look at the Primordials for good ideas on the role direction a given Elder Titan should take.

You could even argue that no Elder Titan need be the same, they could all be unique creatures. So you could have one Elder Fire Titan who was a Controller, and another who was a Lurker and so forth...also that would solve my Level problem since they could be any Level you needed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi

Hello again Mirtek!

The names of the titan lords, Thrym, Surtur, Hrydd (Stormqueen) are mentioned in Worlds and Monsters and the Manual of the Planes. I don't recall at the moment where I read the term Dawn Titans to describe these firstborn titanlords.

I might have to steal that term then.

I am planning on detailing Surtur, but he might be a bit more powerful than would be useful to non-immortal games.

Also he might be a bit bigger. I am introducing three new size categories to 4th Edition in my immortal rules. The first is Mega (for Godzilla size monsters), the second is Giga (for Everest size monsters (like Typhon), the third is Tera for planet sized monstrosities (like the Alklha).

Mega size monsters will be introduced in the Legendary Tier*, Giga sized monsters in the Immortal Tier and Tera sized monsters for those few above Level 50.

*Like the Cloverfield Monster (note thats a prototype that doesn't really feature the Mega size rules): Immortality

 

[KarinsDad]

Thats an interesting take, but I am not sure I agree. To me, all power is relative. A monster that is perhaps a Solo threat for a Level 10 party could represent a mere minion for a Level 27 party.

While this is true, there is a plausibility and a useability issue with the game mechanics of how minions work at higher levels.

At lower levels, it's reasonable for a kobold minion to fall with a single blow. The kobold is smaller than the PC and is merely a roadblock.

As one gets into the higher levels, and this has been mentioned by many people who have played Paragon and above, it starts becoming plausibly problematic for people to really understand how a dragon or a giant or some other massive creature can be killed with a single dagger shot, especially considering that the Rogue is attacking it's knee.

It just doesn't feel right to many players. The foe seems like a paper tiger.

Additionally, there is a useability issue with high level minions. High level PCs have SO many ways to area affect multiple minions and take them out that minions typically are no longer even worthy of note at high levels. They are not even a nuisance at those levels.

So while mechanically, a game designer can do anything he wants, it makes sense to do things that people will enjoy.

Now, your definition of enjoyment and mine might be totally different, but the idea is to not get caught up too much into creating minions because you can and get more caught up into creating unique and interesting Elder Titans.

Players such as myself would rather face the 10th level solo (not by itself, but in a group of monsters) at level 27 and kill it with a few attacks while nimbly avoiding its counter attacks and feel superior to it than have a lousy hit that does 11 points of damage and kills it with a single blow (actually, 10th level is too low, but 20 to 22 might be reasonable). Other players might feel differently. But, it's perfectly reasonable (regardless of WotC claims to the contrary) for a DM to throw a bunch of lower level foes into a same or higher level encounter for PCs, partially so that the players can at least face foes that they have never encountered. But IMO, it's not reasonable to waste space in a book with high level minions. They aren't worth the paper they are written on. YMMV.


At any rate, good luck with your project.

 

[KarinsDad]

The names of the titan lords, Thrym, Surtur, Hrydd (Stormqueen) are mentioned in Worlds and Monsters and the Manual of the Planes. I don't recall at the moment where I read the term Dawn Titans to describe these firstborn titanlords.

Maybe on page 200, 202, 209, 216, 242, etc. of Forgottten Realms Campaign Guide. It doesn't mention these particular dawn titans by name, but Achacar, Arambar and Rorn are mentioned. In fact, Rorn's stats are on page 243.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Karinsdad!

While this is true, there is a plausibility and a useability issue with the game mechanics of how minions work at higher levels.

At lower levels, it's reasonable for a kobold minion to fall with a single blow. The kobold is smaller than the PC and is merely a roadblock.

As one gets into the higher levels, and this has been mentioned by many people who have played Paragon and above, it starts becoming plausibly problematic for people to really understand how a dragon or a giant or some other massive creature can be killed with a single dagger shot, especially considering that the Rogue is attacking it's knee.

It just doesn't feel right to many players. The foe seems like a paper tiger.

The above doesn't bother me a great deal (although your below comments do), hit points are an abstract after all.

Additionally, there is a useability issue with high level minions. High level PCs have SO many ways to area affect multiple minions and take them out that minions typically are no longer even worthy of note at high levels. They are not even a nuisance at those levels.

To me this is a problem, but I already have a (ready made) solution. In addition to having the enormous Mega, Giga and Tera sized creatures, I also have rules for groups of creatures, so you can have Mobs (10s), Companies (100s), Battalion's (1000s), Legions (10,000s) Divisions (100,000s) and Hordes (1,000,000s).

I wanted Immortals to be taking on whole armies of lesser creatures.

So instead of treating individual Giants as higher level minions you could treat a group of ten giants as a higher level standard opponent.

So while mechanically, a game designer can do anything he wants, it makes sense to do things that people will enjoy.

Now, your definition of enjoyment and mine might be totally different, but the idea is to not get caught up too much into creating minions because you can and get more caught up into creating unique and interesting Elder Titans.

Thats true.

Players such as myself would rather face the 10th level solo (not by itself, but in a group of monsters) at level 27 and kill it with a few attacks while nimbly avoiding its counter attacks and feel superior to it than have a lousy hit that does 11 points of damage and kills it with a single blow (actually, 10th level is too low, but 20 to 22 might be reasonable). Other players might feel differently. But, it's perfectly reasonable (regardless of WotC claims to the contrary) for a DM to throw a bunch of lower level foes into a same or higher level encounter for PCs, partially so that the players can at least face foes that they have never encountered. But IMO, it's not reasonable to waste space in a book with high level minions. They aren't worth the paper they are written on. YMMV.

How would players such as yourself feel about taking on a Legion of Hobgoblins, a Pack of Wild Hunt Hounds, a Flock of Rocs, a School of Sahuagin, a Herd of Macetail Behemoths or a Flight of Dragons?

...and of course for the most part you don't even need to go beyond Level 30 for any of those. Where you'll be taking on Companies of Pit Fiends, the entire armies of Demon Princes and so forth.

At any rate, good luck with your project.

Thanks.