What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

[RFisher]

I'm curious, what was it that you didn't like about Sunless Citadel?

I'll try to be brief: Too many errors in the stat blocks. Not challenging enough for PCs created by-the-book. Overly contrived elements to demonstrate specific rules. (The key word in that sentence being "overly".) Putting some information in the wrong place. At least one sentence that made me lose any respect for the author. Uninspiring. At least one description of a feature that guaranteed the group would never take the adventure seriously. (I'm partly to blame for not realizing it myself.)

Individually, they aren't major problems, but altogether...

I won't go into details because this thread isn't the place, I don't want to post spoilers, & I've ranted about it elsewhere (rec.games.frp.dnd for one).

Recently I had the thought of converting it to B/X D&D and, for some reason, it seemed like I might like it if I did so. Maybe because I'd be throwing out so much and only keeping the things I did like.

 

[Melkor]

What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

Personally (as in - for ME and MY gaming group) - FAST COMBAT is what 3.0 and 3.5 are missing.

I recently started running a 1st Edition AD&D game when our DM burned out on 3rd Edition and wanted to take a break for a while. We run 1st Edition without miniatures - using sketches on notebook or graph paper to show positioning. My players have repeatedly told me that they really missed how fast combat could be in 1st Edition.

They have also brought up (and tried to use) 3rd Edition tactics like "Readying Actions" and using - which is funny because those options are nice, but they slow down play.

I would also say that 3.0 and 3.5 are missing the "free form" style of play that earlier editions had. In AD&D, if there wasn't a rule, you would make it up - and as long as you tried to be somewhat consistent in your rulings, you could keep the game fair, and fast moving.

I suppose I could add the "newness" of the Genre is missing....When I first started playing AD&D, there were no computer RPGs (very few "computer" games at all - other than those found on Vectrex, Intellivision, and Atari - but I digress)....There were very few other RPGs at all....So every game was an adventure. I'm sure folks new to the game STILL feel that sense of wonder, but now there are so many other outlets that make the genre available, it's not quite the same.....When I started, you had fantasy books, Bakshi cartoons, and bad B-Movie Fantasy. The Drow were new and mysterious, and not Iconized by two scimitars and a magic panther.....The newness made it different.

Anyway, I find good things in all editions of the game, but those are some of the things I think the new editions are missing.

Cheers.

 

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

Gygax.

Terse answer but that one word literally speaks volumes.
White Box had "it".
AD&D 1e and 1.5e had "it".
AD&D 2e and 2.5e did not.
D&D 3e and 3.5e do not.
Holmes Basic, Moldvay BX, Mentzer BXCMI and the RC did not.

Some of the editions that don't are great games. Some aren't. No troll intended, YMMV, more power to ya.

 

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

edit - double post. grrr.

 

[Piratecat]

Personally (as in - for ME and MY gaming group) - FAST COMBAT is what 3.0 and 3.5 are missing.

Interesting. Our combats in 3e are definitively faster than our combats in 2e were. The lack of round-by-round initiative helps immensely, and we've probably gotten better about streamlining things.

 

[3catcircus]

Interesting. Our combats in 3e are definitively faster than our combats in 2e were. The lack of round-by-round initiative helps immensely, and we've probably gotten better about streamlining things.

How do you reconcile that with Spycraft's fluid initiative rules, which, essentially, does create round-by-round initiative, since both Spycraft and 3e are both using the same base ruleset?

 

[Piratecat]

How do you reconcile that with Spycraft's fluid initiative rules, which, essentially, does create round-by-round initiative, since both Spycraft and 3e are both using the same base ruleset?

When I track initiative in either game, I do so with index cards: one card per person (or group of NPCs), with their initial init number written down at the top right. I sort the cards in initiative order. When someone delays I hand them their card; when someone readies I turn it sideways and reinsert it as their action occurs; and if someone has something that alters their initiative in some other way, I just reinsert their card in the right place in the order. Truth is, I run Spycraft combat just like D&D combat, and haven't had any problems. Of course, that means I might not be doing it correctly.

 

[milotha]

I think that some of the GMs out there in the world are missing permanent character death that 12ed had with the System Shock/Ressurection survival rules and the ever decreasing con. Not to mention that Elves couldn't be raised. I found that in most 1ed/2ed campaigns, the characters really feared death as a result of these rules. Maybe some of the GMs that are out there complaining about something missing and players not fearing death should bring back these rules.

 

[Melkor]

When I track initiative in either game, I do so with index cards: one card per person (or group of NPCs), with their initial init number written down at the top right. I sort the cards in initiative order. When someone delays I hand them their card; when someone readies I turn it sideways and reinsert it as their action occurs; and if someone has something that alters their initiative in some other way, I just reinsert their card in the right place in the order. Truth is, I run Spycraft combat just like D&D combat, and haven't had any problems. Of course, that means I might not be doing it correctly.

That's a clever, and timesaving way of doing things Pirate...

I know every gaming group is different, and I am only speaking for me, and my group - but the initiative thing is the last thing I would mention if I was comparing 1E speed with 3E. Mainly because I never used 1E's initiative rules as written, until recently....before that, we always used the 2E initiative rules, which we could run through VERY fast.....an emphasis on speed is one of the tactics I use to keep my 1E combats moving.

I think what slows down combat in 3E (and again, I'll throw in the caveat FOR MY GROUP, is the chess piece tactical game.....Every player keeping his finger on his "playing piece" while considering every option, and whether every 5' square will cause the dreaded "Attack of Opportunity"....It takes the players way too long to decide on actions....and although the DM would push them into making fast decisions, I couldn't blame them for taking the time to make sure they didn't screw themselves....It's part of what the system is all about....and it can be a lot of fun.

The last game of 3E we ran started with miniatures and a battle grid (or Dwarven Forge pieces), but the last few sessions we didn't use miniatures at all....The DM kept an accurate track of the action on grid-paper behind the DM screen, and described things to the players - this allowed us to act without being quite as tactical, and allowed the DM to keep the action moving....It was a bit faster, and I think it will work great when we start another 3E game.

Cheers.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I think that some of the GMs out there in the world are missing permanent character death that 12ed had with the System Shock/Ressurection survival rules and the ever decreasing con. Not to mention that Elves couldn't be raised. I found that in most 1ed/2ed campaigns, the characters really feared death as a result of these rules. Maybe some of the GMs that are out there complaining about something missing and players not fearing death should bring back these rules.

I definitely have to agree with you. I'm not so sure that returning from death should cost you a level but I did like the 1E/2E mechanic that there was a chance that you just couldn't come back at all. Who cares about how dangerous a situation is when there is a True Resurrection spell that can bring you back as long as someone knows your name. :\