What is Greyhawk?

[Zardnaar]

Early FR is closer to Greyhawk than later FR.
It wasn't really kitchen sink until 3E, lore bloat started 2E.

Ones sword and sorcery the other more high fantasy.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I really like how adventurers in Greyhawk are really a lot more like mercenaries than heroes, a far more realistic view of what an adventurer would actually be.

After all, for Gygax's private game, I believe most of the players would be neutral or even evil, not good. It was only his bright-eyed boy (Bigby!) who was consistently a good guy.

And the modules published reflect this. Against the giants is a the ruler hiring adventurers to fight off the giants, Against the Slave Lords the same against slavers. It can inadvertently be heroic, but it feels a lot more like "I'm here to get paid to do something bloody."

 

[TarionzCousin]

It can inadvertently be heroic, but it feels a lot more like "I'm here to get paid to do something bloody."

In early D&D rules, you got experience points for gold pieces. So treasure had to be included in every adventure.

... but I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[Shiroiken]

It should be important to note that I refuse to acknowledge anything after Gygax left.

1. It's humano-centric. This doesn't mean that all PCs are humans, just that humans are the overwhelming default, and that great care has to be taken when deciding on non-standard options given the likely choices for adventuring.

This is key IMO. Some non-human races are accepted (i.e. the original demi-humans), but weird races would be rare and viewed with suspicion/fear/awe.

2. It's small in scale. You aren't saving the Realms; you're making a buck. I say that partially in jest, but this is partly the aspect of Swords and Sorcery that needs to be played up in a Greyhawk setting. Small scale DOESN'T mean small stakes, however. You can save (or destroy) the village; but there should be a lot less of the "saving the world."

Trying to save the world is just too much... you just try to save your small part of it. Epic threats, such as the invasion of the Queen of the Demonweb Pits, are extremely rare. Even the terrible Temple of Elemental Evil was only a threat to the lands of Velnua, Furyondy, and possibly Celene.

3. There's always something bigger, badder, and more mysterious. This is related to (2). You will never have the power of the Mages who destroyed the Sueloise civilization. There will always be the past glories or dangers, the stories of Vecna and of giant ships crashing from the sky, of beings that strode across the landscape, that are told around the fires at night.

To be fair, all settings have their legends of old that seem to overshadow the power of those today. I don't really feel this is something specific to Greyhawk.

4. Civilization is tenuous, at best. The great powers and empires are in decline and their best days are in the past, and it is always questionable if the forces of civilization will hold off the entropy and darkness. Progress is not assured. The forces of destruction are constantly howling and looking for a way in, and, more often than not, they are about to succeed.

5. People just don't like each other. What do I mean, "people?" Well, everyone. There are long-standing divisions; Suel, Baklun, Oerd, Flan- and that's just the humans. Different elves can be distrustful based on geography or type (what is a Valley Elf doing outside of the Valley?), and demi-humans and humanoids will be met with more (or less) suspicion depending on the location. But see ...

These need to be viewed together. The reason civilization hasn't been overrun is because evil doesn't like each other either. Iuz fights with the Horned Society and the Bandit Kingdoms, the northern barbarians fight among themselves more than others, and the Scarlet Brotherhood hides everywhere with their own agenda.

6. People should be suspicious. So civilization is tenuous, but also spread out. The Flanaess is huge, and poorly controlled. That means that outside of a few of the larger and cosmopolitan cities (such as Greyhawk) people will tend to be suspicious of outsiders; after all, if survival is perilous, you, too, would be careful about extending hospitality to people you don't know.

The original Points of Light setting. I'm not sure I'd go this far, but fringe locations like villages and border towns would be cautious of strangers. Places located deeper in civilization would be less suspicious, even though they know that bandits, cultists, and assorted villains are out there.

7. Greyhawk is a a DIY sandbox. This is kind of the key to what I think is a good Greyhawk; it should provide adventure hooks, but not prescribe what adventures there are. It should be the canvas on which to paint your own campaign.

This is what Gygax intended, everyone starting from the same launch point ( 576 CY), but each DM making it his own version.

 

[Hussar]

Agree with the OP on this.

 

[Hussar]

But, I'm not quite convinced on this:

Greyhawk, drow are bad guys, not PC races

Not true after the Unearthed Arcana. It's not like the UA was written with Forgotten Realms in mind. It was written for Greyhawk. So, no. Not true.

Greyhawk, iconic enemies are dragons, and rot rubs, and otyugh, and Medusa, and type X demons, and vampires, and giants. Not every adventure is somehow tied to a beholder or mind flayer as the big bad guy.

Fair enough, I guess. The implication is that Forgotten Realms uses more beholders and mind flayers? I guess? Don't really see it, but, sure, whatever.

Greyhawk, a creature like a Dragonborn or tiefling would be a monster.

Yeah. No.

Greyhawk, you neared retirement at name level as a power to be reckoned with, and could build your own strongholds. FR is full of super high level NPCs at every corner cafe, fighting primordials, and you’re barely noticeable at 9th level.

Oh gimme a break. Good grief, you have the Circle of Eight, GODS running countries, many, MANY, insanely powerful entities wandering around, but somehow Greyhawk isn't full of super high level NPC's? I don't know where the heck this notion comes from. Greyhawk is chock a block with ludicrously powerful NPC's. Iuz, Vecna, Lum, Mordenkainen, Lolth, and I'm sure I'm missing a hundred others. These aren't some rare NPC that has no impact on the setting. These are the movers and shakers of the setting. You can't go anywhere in Greyhawk without tripping over some bloody arch mage or other.

Greyhawk, I drop in my own adventures and flesh out my areas. FR is so famous I can’t do that without being called out by a player how it doesn’t fit lore
.

Now, to me, THIS is the main draw and the main think that sets Greyhawk apart. It's meant as a tool kit, not an encyclopedia.

 

[Sacrosanct]

But, I'm not quite convinced on this:



Not true after the Unearthed Arcana. It's not like the UA was written with Forgotten Realms in mind. It was written for Greyhawk. So, no. Not true.



Fair enough, I guess. The implication is that Forgotten Realms uses more beholders and mind flayers? I guess? Don't really see it, but, sure, whatever.



Yeah. No.


Oh gimme a break. Good grief, you have the Circle of Eight, GODS running countries, many, MANY, insanely powerful entities wandering around, but somehow Greyhawk isn't full of super high level NPC's? I don't know where the heck this notion comes from. Greyhawk is chock a block with ludicrously powerful NPC's. Iuz, Vecna, Lum, Mordenkainen, Lolth, and I'm sure I'm missing a hundred others. These aren't some rare NPC that has no impact on the setting. These are the movers and shakers of the setting. You can't go anywhere in Greyhawk without tripping over some bloody arch mage or other.



Now, to me, THIS is the main draw and the main think that sets Greyhawk apart. It's meant as a tool kit, not an encyclopedia.

Unearthed arcana isn’t greyhawk. You should know this. I’m sure my fellow greyhawk grognards will back me up on this @lowkey13

Also, Dragonborn and tieflings would be considered monsters first, and not core PC races. With a human centric world greyhawk was, being demihuman was rare enough, let alone Dragonborn or tiefling.

You also seem to be overestimating the number of high level NPCs in greyhawk compared to FR. In FR, they are everywhere. In every city. In every town. In every gnome cafe. Some of the names you mentioned were gods, not high level PCs. In 38 years of playing Greyhawk, not once did any of my players or myself encounter any of those names you listed except Lloth, and that’s only because a famous adventure was made for her. In FR, high level NPCs were everywhere. You couldn’t do anything of significance in FR without Elminster, Kelben, or some other high level NPC showing up at some point. Also, you missed the most important distinction when I said in Greyhawk (1e period when it was featured setting), name level meant something. When FR became featured setting, you barely counted at 9th level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Could be worse. I've been waiting for the inevitable, "ALL GNOMES! ALL PALADINS!"

They’ve been hiding, concealed by clever use of shrubberies and minor illusion, waiting.

 

[Ash Mantle]

I feel that, in addition to what's been said before, Greyhawk is also a place of abundant political machinations, and quite ruthless and heartless ones at that.

What if, given the appropriate amount of lore, PCs could also play as the titled villains of the setting, like Iuz, Rary, Robillard and the like in a great Game of Thrones like play? With the DM setting the scene and playing folks like Mordenkainen and other heroes?

With the sidekick rules, the villainous leaders' sidekicks would be forcibly along for the ride, and with the rumoured mass combat rules to come, your villainous leader could command armies.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I really like how adventurers in Greyhawk are really a lot more like mercenaries than heroes, a far more realistic view of what an adventurer would actually be.

After all, for Gygax's private game, I believe most of the players would be neutral or even evil, not good. It was only his bright-eyed boy (Bigby!) who was consistently a good guy.

And the modules published reflect this. Against the giants is a the ruler hiring adventurers to fight off the giants, Against the Slave Lords the same against slavers. It can inadvertently be heroic, but it feels a lot more like "I'm here to get paid to do something bloody."

I found it!

Greyhawk is the default dnd mode for players that view this as obviously the more realistic take on adventuring!

Literally Greyhawk and it’s appeal just groks for me now!