what is helpless

[mr.pink]

What is considered "helpless" for coup de grace?

please note: i want a list of conditions not "whenever the target is unable to defend themselves effectively"

 

[MatthewJHanson]

It's a pretty short list: Unconcious

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Helpless is a condition. PHB 277 has the complete list and the rules for all of them. Helpless is as the last poster said USUALLY caused by the unconscious condition, which in turn is usually caused by the dying condition. There are also a few powers that can render a character unconscious (the wizard's sleep spell for example). Your DM might also create other situations that render a character helpless, but it is pretty unusual since it means the character can do nothing and a Coupe De Grace action is likely to just kill them outright.

Note particularly that conditions like restrained and immobilized (and even stunned) are separate and don't allow coupe de grace.

 

[Skallgrim]

Normally, only Unconscious is Helpless, though I think that perhaps someone who is restrained AND immobilized might also qualify. I can't point to any rules on that, but if you can't coup de grace a completely bound, tied up prisoner (because they aren't HELPLESS), then I don't think coup de grace works (and there would be no reason not to simply say you can coup de grace Unconscious people).


Because coup de grace isn't limited to just Unconscious people, I think it, by design, is supposed to require DM judgement.

Is the person restrained and immobilized because a goblin is grabbing him and he's affected by Carrion Crawler poison which he could save against in his next turn?

Is he restrained and immobilized because he has been tied with rope to a stone pillar, with his hands tied together first, and then his legs bound together, and then securely tied to the pillar?

The first one seems like a poor excuse to use Coup De Grace. Even if you can't move from your square, you might still stagger around a bit. Even if you are held by the goblin, you might lurch away from the killing blow. Furthermore, you are only going to be in this situation, potentially, for 6 seconds. On your turn, you might break free from the restraining goblin, or save from the poison, or both.

In the second case, you might presumably have tried, repeatedly, to escape, and failed. You might be, quite literally, unable to move at all. The coup de grace is much more plausible here.

By definition, both situations are Restrained and Immobilized, but I think you would want to handle them differently. I think that WOTC wants to give you that freedom to do so, and recognizes that they probably can't spell out, using conditions, exactly what Helpless is.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Normally, only Unconscious is Helpless, though I think that perhaps someone who is restrained AND immobilized might also qualify.

This is definitely not the case. For starters immobilized is obtainable via a grab, while restrained is gained via a rogue encounter power. That makes 1+ CDGs per combat for any rogue that takes it.

Restrained is just like immobilised+, and is a long, long way away from helpless.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think Skallgrim was saying pretty much what you're saying Saeviomagy, a restrained and immobilized character shouldn't normally be considered 'helpless', but what would you consider one that is hog tied to a tree? From a logical standpoint the character is helpless, although they are technically restrained and possibly immobilized.

I'd say however that no DM should put a PC into that situation. The PC should be having some sort of chance to make a dramatic escape. For an NPC, sure, no problem. Use a CDG on them if that is what the plot requires. For a PC I would simply let them suffer the normal penalties for being restrained, etc. The bad guys can hack away at them, but instant kill is avoided and the character can meanwhile make checks to escape bonds or even trigger some power they have left in reserve. Maybe they slip a concealed blade out of their belt and slice the rope or whatever.

Frankly I don't even think CDG should really be used against PCs except in some VERY rare situation, even if the character is unconcious. Why would monsters bother with a downed opponent when they have other threats to deal with? It is both logical and makes for better game play.

 

[Nikosandros]

Why would monsters bother with a downed opponent when they have other threats to deal with? It is both logical and makes for better game play.

I agree that it makes for better game play and thus that's the way I usually handle it, but it isn't really logical from the monsters' point of view. In 4e a downed character can be brought back into the fray with relative ease. If you are a monster and you brought an opponent down, it might be far more logical to put the enemy out for good.

 

[msherman]

I agree that it makes for better game play and thus that's the way I usually handle it, but it isn't really logical from the monsters' point of view. In 4e a downed character can be brought back into the fray with relative ease. If you are a monster and you brought an opponent down, it might be far more logical to put the enemy out for good.

That's true, but it really goes against a lot of history in most d&d games. I would only ever do this with a particularly sadistic/vicious enemy, and I'd give the players some kind of warning in advance. For example, the next big boss fight in my game will include two carnage demons, and at the start of the fight, the BBEG will instruct a couple of his minions to release the demons from the magic circle they're stuck in. The demons will spend their first round ripping one of the minions to shreds and feasting on his entrails.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree that it makes for better game play and thus that's the way I usually handle it, but it isn't really logical from the monsters' point of view. In 4e a downed character can be brought back into the fray with relative ease. If you are a monster and you brought an opponent down, it might be far more logical to put the enemy out for good.

It is hard to say. There are probably definite times when a monster would be well advised to kill a PC, but then again there are a couple of things to consider.

First is the question about what is expected. Do monsters normally run up against enemies that can get back up? Apart from AFAIK one monster in the MM there are none that have second wind. All of them technically have at least one HS, but they don't get death saves, so once they hit zero they're out for good. So monsters might well not generally expect their opponents to stand back up.

Second of course is the question of if it IS good tactics. That would depend entirely on the situation. Sometimes it would be, but I think actually generally not. Usually the other PCs are right there nearby. Usually by the time someone goes down they have spent their second wind. They aren't getting up again on their own. The monster's choice is do a CDG or make an attack on a definitely dangerous foe. If a party member decides to use healing on the down person, then it is quite possible the monsters can just knock them down again before they can do anything. Kind of a toss up really. PROBABLY worth it, but not for sure.

 

[cmbarona]

I should offer this up for clarification:

Some people are debating if CdG is valid if a target is both Restrained AND Immobilized.

The Immobilized condition is contained within the Restrained condition, so the point is moot.

RESTRAINED
✦ You grant combat advantage.
✦ You’re immobilized.
✦ You can’t be forced to move by a pull, a push, or a
slide.
✦ You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls.