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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6859970" data-attributes="member: 87792">I just thought I'd quote these two posts side by side to demonstrate just how much people have to reach in order to make their criticisms of 4e. 4e minions are more flavourful and more versatile than saying "Almost everyone is an 0th level character" while not significantly increasing the overhead in the way the 3.X NPC classes like Commoner and Expert did.In particular the message is different and is part of why 4e provides richer worldbuilding tools than 2e ever had. An 0th level character is almost completely inconsequential. A minion is someone who doesn't belong on the battlefield with the PCs. An 0th level character can't really be skilled in other areas. A 4e minion has an actual level and their skills are based on that level. And because they can have actual powers they aren't mechanically cookie cutter either in combat or out, unlike their 2e equivalents.That said, the "Because they were level 0" is part of the problem. If you start thinking that level is a cause then you're playing Order of the Stick. The 4e approach is to start with the world then layer the mechanics over the top rather than start with the idea that things like levels are part of the laws of physics.QFTThat depends what you mean by intricate. I've beaten down the 4e rules onto a couple of pages of A4 - something you really can't do in 3.X. Although IMO the highest volume of rules is actually 1e played by the book (which is why no one ever did). 4e's on the other hand are the most interconnected.And going back to the subject, 2e worlds and settings are some of the best you can read. Bring back Planescape!</blockquote>

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