D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Ancalagon]

In another thread someone said:

The more I think about 2e, the more I miss it. Could be rose-tinted glasses though.

And well, there is some truth to that. I realized I missed 2nd ed too. One of the thing that is making me happy about 5e is that it feels to me like a modernized version of 2e. But I haven't played it yet and I assume that cbwjm has. I'm also sure he's not the only one.

So... what is it?

It can't be the AC system. "positive/additive" AC is just plain superior to thac0, end of story.

It can't be the absence of feats, because 5e can be played without them.

It can't be the skill resolution system because let's face it, 5e is simpler and better.

It can't be the magical items, because 5e brings the old school back and the atunement rule is superior - but if you don't like it very easy to remove.

It can't be the ability scores because 5e is much more regular and "fairer" - a 13 is worth something now.

So what is it? Is it the multi-classing? Bounded accuracy? The absence of warlocks, barbarians etc? The saving throws? The less HP? The initiative system? Spell disruption? No cantrips? what?

 

[Mouseferatu]

In part, it's the campaign settings. Oh, so many lovely campaign settings.

But for the most part? I believe that, for many of us--and I say "many," not "all"--it's purely about who we were at the time, where we were in life, the wonder we got from early editions that we don't from later because of that stupid "getting familiar with the tropes" and "growing up" garbage that we all got suckered into.

 

[AverageCitizen]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't combat rounds 1 minute long? Much more abstract.

 

[Nickolaidas]

In part, it's the campaign settings. Oh, so many lovely campaign settings.

But for the most part? I believe that, for many of us--and I say "many," not "all"--it's purely about who we were at the time, where we were in life, the wonder we got from early editions that we don't from later because of that stupid "getting familiar with the tropes" and "growing up" garbage that we all got suckered into.

Or, it two words, Nostalgia Goggles.

Frankly, I love 5E because it took us to a time where the rules were simple and the game was about fun, not mathematics. The first thing I said when I read the rules of 3E was "They turned it into a video game", not because of shallow writing, but because the rules were so complicated that I thought I would need a computer to sort the mess out. So many things to keep in your head, so many passive/active/combat abilities, so many bonuses and penalties, so many times I would go "Dammit! I forgot your character had his X bonus removed three rounds ago!" or "You want to cut down this door? Okay ... lemme see ... 15 inches thick ... break down DC ... the material adds another 10 ... you have a penalty because you sneeze as you attack ... wait, what were we talking about?"

 

[Radaceus]

I am compelled to chime in on this one;

Firstly, what's there to miss?
my answer to that, may be skewed, in that I have the fortune of playing with the same group of people since high school (1980s), which are five of the eight of us (yes eight is more than enough!!); and those five became friends because of 2E, three of us being DMs since 79ish boxed sets. In all those years we now have a compiled collection in a designated 'Games room' of all the books, mags, and miniatures one would ever need to play D&D, most of which dates back to pre 1990. We never converted to 3.x+ because we mostly run homebrewed campaigns, rather, we ran all those modules way back when and only run homebrewed these days.

until..
(AKA, Secondly...)
I moved to the other side of the planet and wanted to play with my friends, so we set it up over skype, but that wasn't enough for me. D&D next just hit the internet, I contacted my friends to show them to Roll20, and talk about using a new system since I didn't have of the 2e books at my disposal. Rather than write up my own homebrewed rules, ( I had not DM'd for some time) I took on the Tyranny of dragons and introduced them to what would become my homebrewed parallel story line to Forgotten Realms 5E. (I have to plug Dave a table_topping here for all his great tutorials that helped me get rolling). Our gang have taken to it, one of the other DMs is using 5E now. We find ourselves discussing edition comparisons as we still play 2E in the other DMs campaign.

Summarily, and the TL;DR point:
Our group was content to continue to play 2E until we could no longer roll polyhedrons. None of the other systems got our attention. And yes, we would look, and scoff as grognards do, but never bite. We are now devouring 5E. That has to mean something.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It can't be the ability scores because 5e is much more regular and "fairer" - a 13 is worth something now.

Actually, I vastly prefer the old system of ability scores (though it is a pity about the way Strength explodes out around 18.)

In 5E, you are expected to have 16-20 Strength if you ever want to swing a longsword, and the system of ability boosts guarantees that this will happen sooner or later. In 2E, you could play a fighter with 9 Strength, and if you didn't have a bonus to hit or damage, well neither did anyone else.

I also miss wizards who threw darts, or swung a staff, because that was still a meaningful contribution back in the day when nobody had a bonus to damage (unless it was a specialist fighter, with +2 damage). I liked that my +1 bonus to hit was considered just fine, and I liked hoarding my spells until they were absolutely necessary.

I miss the slow healing. As a DM, I like being able to throw one encounter at the group every two or three days, knowing that they won't always be in top form. This isn't something you can currently pull off in 5E, through any combination of dials, because anyone can recover to full by spending all of their Hit Dice during a short rest (even if that short rest takes eight hours and a medkit, and they can only pull that off once per month). Also, I'm not sure that I'd be able to sell the barbarian or the wizard on only getting their long-rest abilities back at such irregular intervals, and there are no guidelines in place for decoupling the healing system from the short/long rest system.

Mostly, I just miss the simplicity. Every class in 5E gains a new ability (or an improvement to an old ability) at every level, and a lot of those abilities are minor or forgettable or don't logically follow from the narrative. There's no good reason why a fighter (for example) should gain half proficiency to all physical ability checks, due to mysterious athleticism which rangers and barbarians somehow lack -- not in a game that already has an Athletics skill with which to measure athleticism. It's just complexity for the sake of complexity.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I think it's in the "familiarity" and "forced creativity". There were no Warlocks in 2e? Well, maybe not in the 'core' books...but I highly doubt that thousands of individual campaigns didn't have some kind of 'warlock' class, kit, or modification. In the earlier editions like 1e/2e, the idea was very much "here are some rules...you make up the rest". This basically gave the players and DM's "permission" to create, if not being outright "forced" to create. With 3.x+, that was pushed aside in favor of "go on the net, buy this PDF, that book, or wait for one to be created for you to buy".

I think a lot of people are missing that "childhood make believe" focus over "adult purchasing" focus. When you were learning and playing 2e, you and the entire RPG industry was considered "unusual". You couldn't just go down to the game store and peruse a thousand different games and whatnot. You couldn't flip open your phone or tablet and search the net for rpg stuff. So what did you do? Put up flyer's at the library (remember those?...they were buildings that had actual books in them you could borrow), asking for "Players, experienced, level 9 AD&D preferred". You got players who brought with them their own ideas, imaginations and expectations. Nowadays...you get mostly cookie-cutter players who whine, bitch and moan when they show up for the first game and discover that the DM isn't using some particular OPTIONAL rule (like Feats, for example)...then drop out halfway through the 2nd game because "Their character is boring to play because they don't have Feats".

1e/2e? All I can say is that IME, the FIRST thing any new player asked me when either applying for the game, or showing up at the session was something along the line of "So, what are the house rules?". There were virtually NO assumptions other than the game would be based on AD&D. Note I said BASED on. Every AD&D game was different becuase, by nature of the system, it had to be. IMHO, this is a good thing! Variety is the spice of life and all that.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[pming]

**Double Post...sorry!**

 

[delericho]

For me, two things:

1) The settings

2) Having the time to play three nights a week. (On the other hand, though I have less time now, I'm better at using it.)

 

[Zardnaar]

Settings
27 hour sessions
6-9 players
Grittiness
Options (low magic, hi magic, technology etc).