D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Oofta]

In play, I would agree with you regarding CR: Matt runs his table very much like any traditional D&D game, where the players are mostly restricted to taking actions and making choices through their PCs. I think what some people are trying to get at here, however, is that its pretty clear that players have a strong influence on the course of play through the PCs goals, ie, player-authored quests. A lot of the events in the game are driven by areas individual players wanted to explore, likely worked out between Matt and the player out of game, rather than just Matt's own ideas.

I do that too, so I see the point and understand how that can affect player agency. But in play, its still pretty mainstream D&D in so far as agency is concerned.

But I've always seen, played in and run games with players making choices and choosing the direction of their campaign. Whether the players actually use something like player-authored quests, I don't know. Obviously we had things like Fjord and his rejection of Ukatoa, but according to the "after the show" podcast (one of the few I actually watched) that decision was made by Travis spontaneously on the spot. I have no reason to not believe that. After that, Matt ran with it and gave him a different story arc but it seemed like Travis had no clue where it was going.

I've had similar things happen in my games and in games I've played. Sometimes we discuss things off-line, other times it just spontaneously happens. A campaign being directed by player choice is as old as the game itself. Doesn't mean everyone runs their games that way, just that the rules certainly don't get in the way of it happening if it's something the group wants.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Well, they're definitely more narrative than most everything else in 5e.

Well, except for spells. And feats. And class abilities.

Doesn't really matter. This is fact. My agency would be reduced under what you have described and enhanced under what I have described. Nothing else matters.

No, I don't think so. Just look at the background features as an example. If our games are identical in every other way, but I allow the background features in mine, and you don't in yours, your agency is not reduced in my game.

 

[Maxperson]

If our games are identical in every other way, but I allow the background features in mine, and you don't in yours, your agency is not reduced in my game.

You literally have no basis in reality to make that statement. I do in fact, as I have stated many, many times in this thread, allow background features in my game. They just per the rules, are not guaranteed 100% of the time.

 

[Mort]

You literally have no basis in reality to make that statement. I do in fact, as I have stated many, many times in this thread, allow background features in my game. They just per the rules, are not guaranteed 100% of the time.

Do you have any estimated numbers?

Like players have asked to use background features x times and they've used them successfully y times? Some DMs keep good track of that sort of thing. Personally, I don't.

BUT background features don't actually come up all that often in my campaign. Urchin has come up a few times and has never not worked.

Outlander has worked every time but the player hasn't used it anywhere where it would be even a marginal call.

On of the PCs had the Far Traveler feature - but the benefit is SO fluid that it basically HAS to be roleplayed out (at least IMO).

 

[hawkeyefan]

You literally have no basis in reality to make that statement. I do in fact, as I have stated many, many times in this thread, allow background features in my game. They just per the rules, are not guaranteed 100% of the time.

I didn’t mean your game specifically. If there are two games of 5e, and they work identically except one honors background features and one denies them, a player moving from the one that denies them to the one that honors them clearly does not have their agency reduced.

Meaning, there are things we can do when running/playing 5e that can increase or decrease player agency.

 

[Maxperson]

Do you have any estimated numbers?

Like players have asked to use background features x times and they've used them successfully y times? Some DMs keep good track of that sort of thing. Personally, I don't.

BUT background features don't actually come up all that often in my campaign. Urchin has come up a few times and has never not worked.

Outlander has worked every time but the player hasn't used it anywhere where it would be even a marginal call.

On of the PCs had the Far Traveler feature - but the benefit is SO fluid that it basically HAS to be roleplayed out (at least IMO).

No. I don't track it. All I can say is the "vast" or "overwhelming" majority of the time they work. Rare exceptions tend to be, well, rare.

 

[mamba]

No, I don't think so. Just look at the background features as an example. If our games are identical in every other way, but I allow the background features in mine, and you don't in yours, your agency is not reduced in my game.

If he is in your game, he is not the DM… you are looking at this from the player perspective, he is not. He says it reduces his agency as a DM. At least that is how I understand it

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, except for spells. And feats. And class abilities.

How are those things narrative? Generally speaking, most of thst stuff is something the PCs do as the PCs.

 

[hawkeyefan]

How are those things narrative? Generally speaking, most of thst stuff is something the PCs do as the PCs.

I'm thinking of feats like Lucky, Keen Mind, and Leadership. Lucky gives the player the ability to make rerolls whenever they like, to represent that their character is extraordinarily lucky. Keen Mind gives the ability to know certain details without having to make a roll at all. Leadership allows the PC to influence others by granting temp hit points, again, no roll needed. These things all just happen.

For spells, there are dozens of spells that just make things happen beyond the character. But they have the lampshade of magic, so people tend to accept them without question. But if we back up out of the game world, and we just look at these things as "moves" available to the player, then it's very easy to see them as I've described them. And when we speak of player agency, I think it's important to view things at that level.

 

[hawkeyefan]

If he is in your game, he is not the DM… you are looking at this from the player perspective, he is not. He says it reduces his agency as a DM. At least that is how I understand it

I didn't read it that way. I'm not really concerned about the DM's agency.

I took it that he was claiming we can't compare player agency in D&D to other games, so I pointed out that throughout this entire thread, I've only been speaking about D&D, and I've experienced different levels of player agency in different games of D&D.

Which means, there are things that can be done to increase or decrease player agency, if so desired, when playing D&D.