D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Umbran]

...it's just an expression that means 'messed up'.

I know. The point still stands.

When we look at something and say, "that's messed up!" it is in comparison to an implicit notion of what the acceptable norm is.

But, before play begins, gaming tables don't have much of an implicit notion - that's why the Session Zero is such a recommended approach to starting a game, to set that table's notions.

Not being some particular person's cup of tea should not qualify as, "messed up".

 

[Raiztt]

Not being some particular person's cup of tea should not qualify as, "messed up".

but that is explicitly what I am asking: "Is the thing I have described to your tastes? or have I messed up?"

The point of the post was to ask the four mentioned people whether or not they liked that hypothetical or not.

 

[mamba]

You cannot go off the rails until you've laid the rails. You can't be off the rails until after the group sits down and sets mutual expectations.

I used the term because the original post did

What are your thoughts about this so far? Have we already gone off the rails as far as you're concerned?

If you hashed this out beforehand then obviously the question would not need to be asked in the first place. It was there to find the answer to it

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Those games you listed at the end all fall into the narrative box for me. I don't see any of them as traditional games, because of the narrative mechanics. I really don't care for aspects, and similar mechanics designed to mechanize free roleplay and PC personality (that includes 5e BIFTS, by the way, so be aware I'm not a hypocrite about this).

I accept that have varied interests, and talk about different ones, but I'm in a lot of threads on this site, and most of them have plenty of narrative game fans posting regularly, so I don't know how anyone can say there's a shortage of advocates for them here.

It shows diversity of views for sure, as my assessment of Cypher System, for example, is it's pure trad. MODERN trad, but trad still. FATE is harder to categorize but often still used in a pretty trad mode.

 

[Maxperson]

I really don't get this agency is binary thing. You're saying that there's no difference in agency between a very linear adventure path and an open world style sandbox.

That is correct. In both styles you have full agency to affect the world through your actions and options. The degree to which you can affect the world isn't relevant to agency, but only to people's preferences. Note, linear does not mean railroad. You have options in a linear style that you do not have in a railroad.

The DM is the one who decides what's in the world. What will be faced. Obviously, what they choose... a dragon, a locked door, a pair of guards, a capricious pixie, whatever... will determine the potential paths to success.

But again, influence does not equate to selection of options. It's quite literally impossible for me to select all of the options available to the players. No human can without enacting a railroad. We're just not capable of seeing anywhere near all of the options available, let alone selecting which ones are going to be there for the players.

I'm not trying to say anyone is bad at DMing. I'm showing it was a difference of degree (a 3 instead of a 10) not of kind (both restrict player agency).

I'm not going to say anyone's game is bad. All the participants of any game may be totally happy with what's going on. In that sense, it's not bad. I'm trying to remain objective.

I am saying that there are bad DMs out there, and that it takes such an extreme to be one of those DMs that I am talking about.

What's the distinction you're making between "influence over the game world" and "the ability to make choices that affect the (game) world"?

Moving a rock and moving a mountain are both full agency to influence the game world through options available to the PC that the players exercise. That one can be done by a child and one needs say a wish spell doesn't matter.

It's not the degree that determines whether you have agency or how much agency you have, it's simply whether or not you have the options to enable you to affect the game world.

 

[Maxperson]

I've been talking about 5e specifically!

Not game the system. Games the table. My game of 5e is not the same game as your game of 5e.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No offense, but I've heard that before from other DMs. In the end? It didn't matter.

You can't be helped if you don't trust the people you play with. Have fun doing whatever brings you joy.

 

[Maxperson]

The lottery is just way more doors to choose from, with less risk of dragons

And less chance of finding treasure. Actually, come to think of it, my chances of winning the lottery are probably on par with opening a door and finding a dragon.

 

[mamba]

And less chance of finding treasure. Actually, come to think of it, my chances of winning the lottery are probably on par with opening a door and finding a dragon.

agreed, but the chance has little to do with it, because at the time you do not know whether you will win or not. If you already knew beforehand that you had zero chance of winning, then it would no longer be meaningful which numbers you picked, but then no one would play either.

 

[Aldarc]

You can't be helped if you don't trust the people you play with. Have fun doing whatever brings you joy.

I don't know why you are implying that I don't trust the people that I play with. I'm saying that many past DMs in past games in which I have partaken have made similar promises that they have failed to deliever.