D&D General What is player agency to you?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Wanting to know and taking steps to find out with the authority of the PC counts as reason to know it.

But is it sufficient?

 

[Micah Sweet]

But is it sufficient?

What do you mean? Sufficient for what?

 

[pemerton]

Wanting to know and taking steps to find out with the authority of the PC counts as reason to know it.

But is it sufficient?

What do you mean? Sufficient for what?

I take @AbdulAlhazred to be asking if the players want their PCs to know <X>, where <X> is some bit of GM-authored, hitherto-unrevealed bit of background information, and if the players take steps to find out that information by declaring actions to that end for their PCs, then do you as GM tell them<X>?

Or do you have some notion of required steps or appropriate steps? Or perhaps require a successful dice roll, such as many versions of D&D do in relation to secret doors?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I take @AbdulAlhazred to be asking if the players want their PCs to know <X>, where <X> is some bit of GM-authored, hitherto-unrevealed bit of background information, and if the players take steps to find out that information by declaring actions to that end for their PCs, then do you as GM tell them<X>?

Or do you have some notion of required steps or appropriate steps? Or perhaps require a successful dice roll, such as many versions of D&D do in relation to secret doors?

How can they take steps as I've said without taking specific actions? Are you asking if, should they want hitherto hidden information, and they ask for it in character, do I just give it to them, no matter what they do? The steps they take still have to make sense in the fiction. Your own games have that requirement as I recall.

 

[pemerton]

I take @AbdulAlhazred to be asking if the players want their PCs to know <X>, where <X> is some bit of GM-authored, hitherto-unrevealed bit of background information, and if the players take steps to find out that information by declaring actions to that end for their PCs, then do you as GM tell them<X>?

Or do you have some notion of required steps or appropriate steps? Or perhaps require a successful dice roll, such as many versions of D&D do in relation to secret doors?

How can they take steps as I've said without taking specific actions? Are you asking if, should they want hitherto hidden information, and they ask for it in character, do I just give it to them, no matter what they do? The steps they take still have to make sense in the fiction. Your own games have that requirement as I recall.

I've bolded part of my post, to which you replied, which makes me confused by your first sentence.

Anyway, what I'm asking - or what I take @AbdulAlhazred to be asking is - do you have some notion of required steps or appropriate steps or do your perhaps require a successful dice roll?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've bolded part of my post, to which you replied, which makes me confused by your first sentence.

Anyway, what I'm asking - or what I take @AbdulAlhazred to be asking is - do you have some notion of required steps or appropriate steps or do your perhaps require a successful dice roll?

Generally the former, depending on the information.

 

[Maxperson]

I've bolded part of my post, to which you replied, which makes me confused by your first sentence.

Anyway, what I'm asking - or what I take @AbdulAlhazred to be asking is - do you have some notion of required steps or appropriate steps or do your perhaps require a successful dice roll?

I don't see where that makes any difference at all. You've told a story about one of your games where there was a brother who was kidnapped by a balrog and the PC went to the bazaar to try and find something to help. I may be getting that a bit wrong, but that doesn't matter.

The player had to declare the required step of taking an action to go to the bazaar to find the information/item he wanted and then make a successful die roll(or whatever mechanic was involved.) to succeed in getting what he wanted. Effectively the only difference between your example there and what @Micah Sweet is talking about is WHEN the information/item is authored. The timing of authorship doesn't have anything to do with agency. It's just a playstyle preference.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't see where that makes any difference at all. You've told a story about one of your games where there was a brother who was kidnapped by a balrog and the PC went to the bazaar to try and find something to help. I may be getting that a bit wrong, but that doesn't matter.

The player had to declare the required step of taking an action to go to the bazaar to find the information/item he wanted and then make a successful die roll(or whatever mechanic was involved.) to succeed in getting what he wanted. Effectively the only difference between your example there and what @Micah Sweet is talking about is WHEN the information/item is authored. The timing of authorship doesn't have anything to do with agency. It's just a playstyle preference.

I’d push back just a bit here.

The player does something the DM hasn’t prepared for. How does the D&D DM determine what happens?

Step 1. He extrapolates from all the info he has about his world (possibly using a dice roll to aid in this determination if he is uncertain ).

Step 2. Now that he has established the necessary details the DM resolves the players action just like any other.

D&D to some degree obfuscates that fiction is being authored in the moment. But it’s a necessary step and what the whole extrapolation process is really about.

The concern around step 1 in D&D is that players literally can’t discern this info ahead of time because it didn’t exist ahead of time. This is where the notion of playing the dm arises. Etc. I think there’s strong defenses against this - but i don’t think it’s just about when fiction is authored either.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What do you mean? Sufficient for what?

Is

Wanting to know and taking steps to find out with the authority of the PC counts as reason to know it.

sufficient for the player to be told what they want to know? You said it is 'necessary', but is it sufficient?

 

[Maxperson]

I’d push back just a bit here.

The player does something the DM hasn’t prepared for. How does the D&D DM determine what happens?

Step 1. He extrapolates from all the info he has about his world (possibly using a dice roll to aid in this determination if he is uncertain ).

Step 2. Now that he has established the necessary details the DM resolves the players action just like any other.

D&D to some degree obfuscates that fiction is being authored in the moment. But it’s a necessary step and what the whole extrapolation process is really about.

The concern around step 1 in D&D is that players literally can’t discern this info ahead of time because it didn’t exist ahead of time. This is where the notion of playing the dm arises. Etc. I think there’s strong defenses against this - but i don’t think it’s just about when fiction is authored either.

And I'm going to push back against that a bit.

Playing the DM doesn't care about improvisation, but rather it's about doing something the DM will like in order to gain success or a greater likelihood of success. For example, the DM could have prepped a trap ahead of time(no improv) and if the player knows that the DM likes certain methods trap locating described by the players, a player using the method the DM likes in order to gain a greater chance of success is also playing the DM.

Improvised situations or prepped situations can both result in playing the DM or not playing the DM, depending on what the player when he tries to resolve things.

What I was talking about in response to @pemerton was in the context of agency vs. methodology, which don't touch on playing the DM. Does the player have agency in the example Pemerton posted? Yes. Does the player have agency with the method that @Micah Sweet has been describing? Yes. Does either one grant more agency than the other? No. The only effective difference is the timing of the authorship.

Maybe the player in Pemerton's example was playing the DM and maybe not. We have no way of knowing. Same with the methods Micah has been describing. I don't see where playing the DM matters.