What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Maxperson]

Bad GMing solves itself.

I agree. I was just pointing out that DM Force and DM Fiat are easy to abuse, sometimes even accidentally.

 

[Scott Christian]

That plane was explicitly not locked down, though. @Reynard used unfortunate language in his OP that sort of set this thread in motion. If you ignore the "locked down" portion and read what he really said, there are other ways off the plane. They have wishes in their pockets that would work.

That is unfortunate that he said, "locked down." He also said, "closing gates." He also said, "using magic to steal tuning forks from those arriving." Only later did he state there were plenty of ways off. That scenario he is describing does not sound at all like people have permission to just leave. The Winter Court is trying to take hold of the Feywild.

And again, that is not a problem. Sounds fun to me. But if its just: "Hey, you are in the Feywild, yet like normal, all the other pathways to leave are open," then it isn't really an adventure is it. There is no inciting incident outside of having a couple tuning forks stolen. And that's the thing, you can't have it both ways. It's either an adventure and you are trying to get out of the Feywild to finish your quest, or it is a chance to do some Feywild shopping. Which is it?

As for how players could come up with the ways....

1) "Hey DM, we're going to go search for a neutral Archfey and negotiate our way off the plane."
2) "Hey DM, there are gods that live here and they can get us out. We're going to look for a deity domain and see if we can negotiate with the god or its minions for a way off the plane."
3) "Hey DM, we're going to try and find one of the natural crossings between the feywild and the prime plane(s) and use that to get out."
4) "Hey DM, we don't want to use our wishes, but there are beings here that can grant them. We're going to try and find out and work out a deal."
5) Lots of other ideas.

I agree with you. The players can suggest all those things. But that doesn't negate my claim that they are doing something until the DM's whims are placated. If Reynard says, "Sure, all of those would have worked." Then why are they here in the first place. Is it an adventure or not? Is there an objective or not? If Reynard says, "Well, only numbers 1 and 3 would work." Then it is a game where the players have to go along the tracks until they guess the right number.

And by no means am I discounting the fun that can be had by guessing the right number. The players, myself included, may love exploring the Feywild and turning up stones that don't get us out. Who knows? Maybe it turns into a comedy of errors, and the table is laughing their heads off.

But I think it is clear from Reynard's post that he meant the Feywild to be an adventure. One where they had to escape, and while doing so (however they do it), gain some experience before continuing on with their campaign objective.

 

[Hriston]

I think there are degrees of GM influence on game progression, so, that simple dichotomy fails to describe the real things that happen at our tables.

Well, again, the question @Reynard asked was "to what degree" must such influence (I believe he called it campaign constraints) rise before you call it railroading, so one can ignore the many degrees (of whatever) below that point and just focus on what qualifies as railroading. If there's an objection to the dichotomy forming the premise of that question, I would expect those comments to be directed to the person asking the question rather than someone giving an answer to it.

Also, you seem to be subbing in GM influence for railroading, or saying that because varying degrees of GM influence can be present in a game that there is always some amount of railroading, no matter how insignificant. I don't think that's true. Railroading isn't tied to any specific set of actions or statements on the part of the GM, and this isn't just about the GM. Any game participant can railroad by exerting control over another player's PC's decisions or opportunities for decisions in a way the player perceives as breaking the group's interactions and relationships, so no matter what's actually being done at the table, it only crosses the line into railroading when a player makes that interpretation.

 

[Gradine]

Not even in the slightest. When I played BG3 I wanted to go to to Waterdeep to see if I could find a cure for the tadpole, but the GM railroaded me into going to Baldur's Gate and confronting the giant Brain Monster instead. I constantly use BG3 as an example of how a railroad game and a "linear" game are functionally identical, the only difference being whether or not the players are okay with being limited to experiencing what the GM has prepared for them to experience. I am always saddened when I think about how most people play TTRPGs in a "linear" fashion because it fails to take advantage of the single thing that makes TTRPGs unique, that there doesn't need to be a preplanned series of events.

That... isn't at all what I was talking about. I only brought up BG3 as an example of multiple ways to deal with a locked door. I specifically said that it was a computer game with limited possibilities of outcomes, and that a live human GM could respond to an infinite number of solutions! Why was this your takeaway?

 

[Maxperson]

I constantly use BG3 as an example of how a railroad game and a "linear" game are functionally identical, the only difference being whether or not the players are okay with being limited to experiencing what the GM has prepared for them to experience.

I think that misses the mark a bit. The DM can railroad players via illusionism, and since it generally takes the players a long time to figure it out, they will be okay with the situation, even though they are still being railroaded. Also, even in a linear adventure, the PCs can get off the line and do something else. They aren't forced to proceed the same way that they would be in a railroad.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree with you. The players can suggest all those things. But that doesn't negate my claim that they are doing something until the DM's whims are placated. If Reynard says, "Sure, all of those would have worked." Then why are they here in the first place. Is it an adventure or not? Is there an objective or not? If Reynard says, "Well, only numbers 1 and 3 would work." Then it is a game where the players have to go along the tracks until they guess the right number.

I take exception to the word "whims." A whim suggests that the DM isn't going to bother even thinking the player ideas through to see if they have merit. He's just going to say yes or no on a whim.

An overwhelming majority of DMs will consider the PC plan and gauge the chances of success, and go from there. It's going to be reasoned out, and unless the DM is going to truly railroad the players, many, if not most player ideas will have some chance of success.

 

[Scott Christian]

I take exception to the word "whims." A whim suggests that the DM isn't going to bother even thinking the player ideas through to see if they have merit. He's just going to say yes or no on a whim.

An overwhelming majority of DMs will consider the PC plan and gauge the chances of success, and go from there. It's going to be reasoned out, and unless the DM is going to truly railroad the players, many, if not most player ideas will have some chance of success.

That is a fair criticism. I am not really thinking of it so negatively. I am thinking of it in terms of the DM reading the room and then deciding. As I said earlier, we make decisions based on emotions, experience, and a little bit of brains. So I look at whims as, "My itch as a DM is satisfied and they seem happy." So, it's a good exception. I will try to find the right word.

As for your second paragraph, the DM is still deciding their chances, and in effect, he is railroading to some. And per OP: "There is no predetermined path home. They can try anything they want..." The DM had no idea how they could get out. So the first four things they tried might have failed because he determined they wouldn't work. Heck, the first thing they tried he said no to. Which leads us to the word "reasoned out." I take exception to that. It is more like "emotionally reasoned."

All those ideas you mentioned. What are the "chances" of each one working?

1) "Hey DM, we're going to go search for a neutral Archfey and negotiate our way off the plane."

What are the chances they find one? What are the chances their negotiations succeed/fail? Suppose they come in all aggressive. What DC are you setting the intimidate skill check at? Suppose they bring a basket of oranges and promise to spread fairy love. What are you setting the DC at?

2) "Hey DM, there are gods that live here and they can get us out. We're going to look for a deity domain and see if we can negotiate with the god or its minions for a way off the plane."

Same questions.

3) "Hey DM, we're going to try and find one of the natural crossings between the feywild and the prime plane(s) and use that to get out."

Same question: What are the chances of them finding one? What investigation DC are you setting? What nature DC? What arcana DC?

4) "Hey DM, we don't want to use our wishes, but there are beings here that can grant them. We're going to try and find out and work out a deal."

Same questions.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Not even in the slightest. When I played BG3 I wanted to go to to Waterdeep to see if I could find a cure for the tadpole, but the GM railroaded me into going to Baldur's Gate and confronting the giant Brain Monster instead. I constantly use BG3 as an example of how a railroad game and a "linear" game are functionally identical, the only difference being whether or not the players are okay with being limited to experiencing what the GM has prepared for them to experience. I am always saddened when I think about how most people play TTRPGs in a "linear" fashion because it fails to take advantage of the single thing that makes TTRPGs unique, that there doesn't need to be a preplanned series of events.

From what secondhand knowledge i know of BG3 I struggle to see how it’s a railroad, my understanding of the game is that there are multiple endings based on your choices and actions, a railroad fundamentally wouldn’t have that because what defines a railroad is a lack of capability to make meaningful decisions that influence things in any way other than the one way what the GM intended, BG3 on the other hand, while limited in its fundamental nature as a videogame that cannot improvise and requires all actions and choices to be preprogrammed, still lets players make meaningful decisions, sure you might not be allowed to stray too far off the scripted path, have certain required checkpoints to pass through and cannot go off visiting waterdeep but that by no means makes it a railroad.

 

[Reynard]

That is a fair criticism. I am not really thinking of it so negatively. I am thinking of it in terms of the DM reading the room and then deciding. As I said earlier, we make decisions based on emotions, experience, and a little bit of brains. So I look at whims as, "My itch as a DM is satisfied and they seem happy." So, it's a good exception. I will try to find the right word.

As for your second paragraph, the DM is still deciding their chances, and in effect, he is railroading to some. And per OP: "There is no predetermined path home. They can try anything they want..." The DM had no idea how they could get out. So the first four things they tried might have failed because he determined they wouldn't work. Heck, the first thing they tried he said no to. Which leads us to the word "reasoned out." I take exception to that. It is more like "emotionally reasoned."

All those ideas you mentioned. What are the "chances" of each one working?

What are the chances they find one? What are the chances their negotiations succeed/fail? Suppose they come in all aggressive. What DC are you setting the intimidate skill check at? Suppose they bring a basket of oranges and promise to spread fairy love. What are you setting the DC at?

Same questions.

Same question: What are the chances of them finding one? What investigation DC are you setting? What nature DC? What arcana DC?

Same questions.

You seem to be suggesting that if the GM did no pre-plan for every possible contingency, anything they decide turns into "railroading" because it is just placating their whims.

This is not my experience at all, and in fact hard designing of possible outcomes is much more likely to result in railroading.

 

[Maxperson]

As for your second paragraph, the DM is still deciding their chances, and in effect, he is railroading to some. And per OP: "There is no predetermined path home. They can try anything they want..." The DM had no idea how they could get out. So the first four things they tried might have failed because he determined they wouldn't work. Heck, the first thing they tried he said no to. Which leads us to the word "reasoned out." I take exception to that. It is more like "emotionally reasoned."

In my opinion those people's opinions can simply be discounted. It's quite literally the game play loop for D&D.

1) The DM describes the environment(potentially trapped in the Feywild).
2) The players describe what they want to do(locate an archfey to get out).
3) The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions.

If folks consider that railroading, I'm not going to pay attention to their complaints.

All those ideas you mentioned. What are the "chances" of each one working?

What are the chances they find one? What are the chances their negotiations succeed/fail? Suppose they come in all aggressive. What DC are you setting the intimidate skill check at? Suppose they bring a basket of oranges and promise to spread fairy love. What are you setting the DC at?

Same questions.

Same question: What are the chances of them finding one? What investigation DC are you setting? What nature DC? What arcana DC?

Same questions.

There's no way for me to know, because it wasn't my game. There are far too many variable, including all prior game play from 1st(or whatever level they started at) to 13th level. For all I know they have two gods who owe them favors and made good friends with an archfey. That would skyrocket the chances of success for those two possibilities.

I can only accurately assess the chances for success or failure in the games that I run, because I have the information needed to do so.