What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Thomas Shey]

You could always tell them that D&D contains it's own massive host of expectations based on the setting that restrict their choices. They can't play a hacker. Or a truck driver. Or a Klingon. Railroad

They usually seem to have less objections to the starting rest state than they do expectations during play. The example I give (which somewhat relates to what you posted earlier) is that it would be okay to play a game where everyone started out playing law enforcement, but they want to have the right to go rogue at any moment if they think their character would do so (or more cynically, they just felt like it as players). Its the idea that staying within premise should have any weight at all that they seem to object to.

 

[Thomas Shey]

We're getting to the point here where if a door only swings one way it's going to be called railroading. IDK. Puzzles have solutions, sometimes only one solution. If one wants to call that railroading then the term has lost any and all meaning.

I suspect its more a case whether solving the puzzle is the whole point of, or necessary, for the game to continue on. I have to admit I'm not sure I'd call that a railroad, but I'd probably find it tiresome, but then, I'm not a fan of puzzles.

 

[zakael19]

I’m not sure how a puzzle constitutes a railroad by itself; being forced into the situation where the GM says thou shalt not continue without doing this puzzle and no alternatives? Thats probably different.

A puzzle presented as a way to bonus stuff, or an alternative method along a path, or with a fail state that still allows progress with consequence? Sure.

I think the more narrow of a scope of thing that you “require” with GM mandate the more on-rails the situation becomes.

 

[Maxperson]

if said puzzle is the only way to progress the plot, yup. If it gates a side quest or a reward, not really.

It's still not a railroad if it's the only way to progress. It's a DM mistake. The players aren't being forced anywhere. They've simply failed to find what was gated behind the puzzle or secret door.

When I was still in high school I learned that the hard way and put the thing the group needed behind a secret door, because making it hard to find is what the people who built that dungeon would do. The group didn't find it and the quest failed. I immediately decided that I wouldn't be doing that again.

 

[GrimCo]

Puzzle that unless solved blocks progress isn't a problem if players can just say "F it", leave and either completely abandon quest or return later when someone gets eureka moment and realizes answer. It becomes problem if they must solve it or they're stuck there and can't leave. "Failing" quest isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, but they used their power to make the players feel cool, so it's okay.

No it's not. It's far from okay to make my play experience meaningless through illusionism. I will generally catch on eventually and then I get really angry, because the DM wasted a huge amount of my time.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No it's not. It's far from okay to make my play experience meaningless through illusionism. I will generally catch on eventually and then I get really angry, because the DM wasted a huge amount of my time.

Which is why that technique is predicated on the marks never finding out

 

[aramis erak]

It's still not a railroad if it's the only way to progress. It's a DM mistake. The players aren't being forced anywhere. They've simply failed to find what was gated behind the puzzle or secret door.

No, it's definitely a railroad. AND a mistake. And, generally, bad GMing...
Note that I said "only way to advance the plot" - leaving advances the plot. White Plume Mountain has a particular set of puzzles that getting them wrong is can't retreat. One of them, the one with the flesh golems, once there, you can't retreat. You have to pick. And if you pick wrong it results in a massively over-powered for the module fight.

When I was still in high school I learned that the hard way and put the thing the group needed behind a secret door, because making it hard to find is what the people who built that dungeon would do. The group didn't find it and the quest failed. I immediately decided that I wouldn't be doing that again.

Meanwhile, I find it better to offer a complcated success, such as injuring self on the mechanism, and thus not blocking a whole raft of non-illusionism techniques in dungeon building.

I've had players reject complicated success... sometimes with good cause.

I've used puzzles for good effect a few times, and to frustration a few times. I learned that puzzles should lead to a reward, but not require solving to complete the adventure.

 

[Maxperson]

No, it's definitely a railroad. AND a mistake. And, generally, bad GMing...
Note that I said "only way to advance the plot" - leaving advances the plot. White Plume Mountain has a particular set of puzzles that getting them wrong is can't retreat. One of them, the one with the flesh golems, once there, you can't retreat. You have to pick. And if you pick wrong it results in a massively over-powered for the module fight.

That's still not a railroad. If you fail at something you can get into hot water, which can include being trapped. That's not a railroad. The group chose to go to White Plume Mountain. They chose to keep exploring. Their choices brought them to the puzzle where they failed and got stuck.

A railroad is the DM forcing the party into the mountain even though they want to go some other way. Then forcing them through the dungeon to puzzle even though they want to leave.

Exercise of player agency can result in being stuck or only having one way out of something.

Meanwhile, I find it better to offer a complcated success, such as injuring self on the mechanism, and thus not blocking a whole raft of non-illusionism techniques in dungeon building.

I've had players reject complicated success... sometimes with good cause.

I've used puzzles for good effect a few times, and to frustration a few times. I learned that puzzles should lead to a reward, but not require solving to complete the adventure.

Yeah. I was a teenager at the time and didn't have the experience that I have now. Now I wouldn't gate something critical behind a puzzle or secret door, but if I did somehow screw up and didn't realize how important the thing gated was, I would act to correct my error. Depending on the nature of the error and the state of the fiction, the players may or may not know that there was a problem that got fixed.

 

[Maxperson]

Which is why that technique is predicated on the marks never finding out

In my experience it gets found out eventually.