What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Bill Zebub]

Then I don't think we can continue this discussion. While like most things, there are muddy cases, but if you don't believe there are dumb plans and smart plans we're coming from this from such different premises that there's unlikely to be able to make any common ground.

Not exactly. I just think the distinction is usually pretty blurry and subjective.

All it would have taken was one astute Trojan, or one ill-timed Greek sneeze, and if Odysseus were remembered at all it would be for having come up with the World's Dumbest Plan.

Or maybe it's that the more obviously "smart" a plan is, the more obvious it is, and thus less dependent upon intelligence?

 

[Bill Zebub]

If the game assumes that primary challenge is to player, mental stats are irrelevant in role play. You rely on your (player's) stats to come up with clever solutions. If game assumes that primary challenge is to characters, than there could be argument for mental stats mattering, since you rely on game mechanics to come up with solutions.

I do think you're right that there has been a shift over time to the characters overcoming challenges rather than the players. And ultimately that's what I don't like, and the difference that underlies this debate.

For example, although I usually don't really like puzzle traps (if I were a super-genius Lich I wouldn't install security devices that can be figured out) if I have to deal with one I would rather be given the puzzle and try to solve it, versus something like "There is a complicated array of numbers and buttons. On a DC 20 Intelligence check a player can figure out how it works."

But I also think the two approaches can be blended: the players figure out what needs to be done, and the characters have to actually do it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not exactly. I just think the distinction is usually pretty blurry and subjective.

I think it sometimes is, but often is clear as crystal. So I repeat my prior point: our premises are too different.

Or maybe it's that the more obviously "smart" a plan is, the more obvious it is, and thus less dependent upon intelligence?

Which is why I'm only fussy about this in extreme cases, in part.