What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Crimson Longinus]

Interesting premise. Doesn't mean I automatically buy it though, so here we are.

I would not GM to a player I would not trust to play their character properly and I would not play with a GM who did not trust me to play my character properly.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes, this, absolutely this! And people who do not get it simply do not play in this way. They look their character from outside, make detached authorial decisions about them. Which is fine, but it is a fundamental difference in approach, so games designed to do one approach might not work with the another or might even be destructive to it.

To be clear, I was doing full inhabitation play 30 years ago; this isn't a case of people "not getting" what you're talking about.

You and Max, among others, have simply chosen (as much as anyone chooses their preferences) to find that inhabitation to be your primary goal in roleplaying; others here (such as myself) just see it as one way to play among many others.

 

[hawkeyefan]

This is not intended to be a slight on your style of play here, but I get the bolded portion without relinquishing control. I don't need to relinquish to experience that.

I’m of two minds about this. My more optimistic side would say “of course… there are elements of this in nearly all the RPGs I’ve played, it’s part of what makes them so interesting to me.”

The more pessimistic side thinks “oh, of course you have, Max… your game of D&D allows you to do everything that any RPG allows because of course it does.”

I think the truth lay somewhere in the middle. That while such discovery can happen in any game, some games are specifically designed to function that way, and will deliver that experience more readily and consistently through play.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I’m of two minds about this. My more optimistic side would say “of course… there are elements of this in nearly all the RPGs I’ve played, it’s part of what makes them so interesting to me.”

The more pessimistic side thinks “oh, of course you have, Max… your game of D&D allows you to do everything that any RPG allows because of course it does.”

I think the truth lay somewhere in the middle. That while such discovery can happen in any game, some games are specifically designed to function that way, and will deliver that experience more readily and consistently through play.

You need to have characters with beliefs, values, temperament etc and situations that challenge those. Which can happen in any RPG, but some games specifically instruct to create such.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yes, this, absolutely this! And people who do not get it simply do not play in this way. They look their character from outside, make detached authorial decisions about them. Which is fine, but it is a fundamental difference in approach, so games designed to do one approach might not work with the another or might even be destructive to it.

Well, not exactly. As I said, my decisions for Clara in my game of The Between were made in actor stance more than any other. That I’m able to then step back and observe the character from a more removed point doesn’t change that.

And while I think there is something to the concept of Bleed, I think there is a certain amount of detachment or removal between character and player no matter what. You seem to be criticizing what I’m describing about my game from the position of some deep in character level of inhabitation that I don’t think exists… so forgive me if I don’t give the criticism much credence.

And to me what @hawkeyefan describes too, is still much more authoring the character than inhabiting the character. Of course a decent author takes into account what a character would do, but when you are rewriting their background on the fly it does not sound like inhabitation to me, it sounds like authorship.

There is no rewriting happening. “Rewriting” as you’re using it would require something to be written first, and then ignored in favor of some new version. That’s not what I’m talking about.

Instead, all that’s initially “written” for the character are a handful of details. Their look, a couple of broad background details, a couple of traits. These things remain valid and don’t get “rewritten” as you say. What’s happening instead is that there are large blank spots that we don’t know about the character, and those get established during play. Not “rewritten”.

I imagine you’ll play this off as “oh it’s the same thing”, but I think there is a huge difference in how these two approaches feel in play.

It’s akin to reading a story about Sherlock Holmes or Batman… where we already know the protagonist. There are expectations about how they will act, what mannerisms they’ll display, what actions they’re likely to take. But if we are instead reading a story where we aren’t already familiar with the protagonist in this way… well, then we’re approaching in a different way. We’re not looking at their actions to see if they match our expectations based on past experience with the character, we’re instead learning about them for the first time.

I think that this is something that has a significant impact on how an RPG feels.

And these things can certainly overlap. Like when I am playing a character I'm immersed in, there is still some part of my brain that thinks of the game and story etc, and those certainly can influence the character. But it is very important to me that I am in control what of such external influences I onboard to the character, because only I can know what will match my internal model of the character and what will not.

Why? Why can “only you” know?

And how does that jibe with the following?

I would not GM to a player I would not trust to play their character properly and I would not play with a GM who did not trust me to play my character properly.

How can you possibly determine, as a GM, that a player is not playing their character “properly” if only they can know how the character will behave?

 

[TwoSix]

I’m of two minds about this. My more optimistic side would say “of course… there are elements of this in nearly all the RPGs I’ve played, it’s part of what makes them so interesting to me.”

The more pessimistic side thinks “oh, of course you have, Max… your game of D&D allows you to do everything that any RPG allows because of course it does.”

I think the truth lay somewhere in the middle. That while such discovery can happen in any game, some games are specifically designed to function that way, and will deliver that experience more readily and consistently through play.

I mean, I think the core distinction is that I don't feel the weight of that discovery if the discovery is a choice I make as a player. I much prefer it to come from a source external to me, with a real risk that what I think should happen might not happen. I've set up the conflict, the system provides the resolution, and then I narrate the consequences.

At its core, what Max is looking for and what I'm looking for are opposing preferences that can't be reconciled.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've never been particularly hesitant to say so. As long as people understand I can shift from one stance to another with the same character at different times and not act like that's weird and alien.

I just want everyone to play their PCs and NPCs as characters grounded in their own personalities, knowledge, and capabilities in the setting, not basing any game decisions on information outside of that. It has nothing to do with Players making content or anyone pushing story.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I mean, I think the core distinction is that I don't feel the weight of that discovery if the discovery is a choice I make as a player. I much prefer it to come from a source external to me, with a real risk that what I think should happen might not happen. I've set up the conflict, the system provides the resolution, and then I narrate the consequences.

At its core, what Max is looking for and what I'm looking for are opposing preferences that can't be reconciled.

Yeah, I think that mistaking those moments of “wow, I wasn’t expecting that to happen” related to character that may crop up occasionally in a game like D&D for the continual process of discovering a character that some other games try to deliver is a pretty big error.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You seem to be criticizing what I’m describing about my game from the position of some deep in character level of inhabitation that I don’t think exists… so forgive me if I don’t give the criticism much credence.

Yes. It seems rather obvious you'd think this. Thus you won't get it.

It’s akin to reading a story about Sherlock Holmes or Batman… where we already know the protagonist. There are expectations about how they will act, what mannerisms they’ll display, what actions they’re likely to take. But if we are instead reading a story where we aren’t already familiar with the protagonist in this way… well, then we’re approaching in a different way. We’re not looking at their actions to see if they match our expectations based on past experience with the character, we’re instead learning about them for the first time.

Right. And here again you are incapable of even comprehending the internal perspective. You cannot be Batman or Sherlock whilst learning who they are the first time, unless they are just slowly recovering from serious amnesia.

Why? Why can “only you” know?

Because it is I who have the internal model of the character.

And how does that jibe with the following?

How can you possibly determine, as a GM, that a player is not playing their character “properly” if only they can know how the character will behave?

Because they admit, or it can otherwise be inferred, that they do not have an internal model of the character, and/or they practice token play. But it is not something I police. I just invite people I know to have sufficiently similar approach to mine that issues do not arise. I have no interest of using rules or any other force to play like I prefer, I just invite people who already want to do so.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Er, that's what social skills vs. NPCs are. Social skills of NPCs vs. PCs have nothing to do with the player side of the screen being able to portray characters with social skills that are different from their own.

GMs and NPCs have different levels of social skill too.