What is so special about Greyhawk?

[Verys Arkon]

I'm intensely curious about the campaign setting for 2010, set to be announced at GenCon this summer. One of the frequent guesses is that it will be a revised or rebooted Greyhawk (the other front runner being Dark Sun). Some point to the recent article on the Celestian Order, others see the RPGA DM reward - the Village of Homlet, as building evidence.

I've never had much experience with Greyhawk. I missed it in 2E and only got a glimpse of it in 3E through its inclusion in the Core books.

What makes Greyhawk special? Is it primarily nostalgia?

 

[Crothian]

It's been ages since I read through some of the cool books from past editions, but it had a lot of creativitiy and interesting adventures in it.

 

[JeffB]

NiteScreed said it best

I think Nitescreed defined the nuts & bolts of the setting best

Subj: Grey in the Hawk1
Date: 96-07-26 22:44:41 EDT
From: NiteScreed

What does it mean for a product or adventure or even an
entirely new creation to be suitably "Greyhawk?"

Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency

Greyhawk has a strong internal sense of history that is
consistently applied in all "Greyhawk" products or
creations. However, not every product published under the
name "Greyhawk" meets this criteria.

Greyhawk is a storied realm. It's seminal figures,
good and ill, are interwoven throughout the setting. It has
a defined history that strongly influences the present and
future of the setting. Greyhawk's history is not a footnote
but an integral part of the setting that must be understood
to truly comprehend the relationships among men, nations and
even gods. True "Greyhawk" products or creations build on
this history, incorporate it and develop it. The best such
products or creations leave enough open ends to allow for
further such development. More mediocre attempt closure of
every loose thread.


Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events

The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and
development are all presented such that the players may not
only take part but play a leading role.

Players could fight the Greyhawk Wars. Players
defeated the hordes of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
Players defeated Lolth. Players turned the tide as Iuz aced Vecna.

In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Ao decrees an
event and the players get to clean up in the aftermath.
Cyric destroys Zhentil Keep offstage and the players get to
delve into the ruins. Gods die to be replaced by mortals and
the players watch. Elminster sends players on a mission but
ultimately keeps from them the greater goal the mission
serves.

When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a
tapestry of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about
your story in the context of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying
in Greyhawk involves playing your part in the longest
running AD&D campaign in existence. It is bigger than you
are but you can become as great as it is. That is the
essence of Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and
connects every part of the setting and all who play there of
any length of time.


Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or
Direct

NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct
the course of events upon which your character is washed
like the tide. Neither do they persistently show up to
advise you. They may do both but more often they serve as
the measuring stick against which your character's
performance can be judged and serve to reward your character
by recognizing their accomplishments or otherwise admitting
your character into their august company.

The Circle of Eight are aloof. They do not want to be
your buddy. Neither do they have a laundry list of chores
for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will find
adventure without such NPCs suggesting it.

In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is
famous for sending characters on their way. The Harpers do
the same. Ultimately, Elminster or the Harpers play the
directing role and may indeed appear to steal the show or
otherwise claim ultimate victory.


In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from
the likes of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as
a safety net. You can go your own way, in fact, without
them ever troubling you. This cannot be so simply said in
settings such as the Forgotten Realms and has not a little
to do with Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical
Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC Resolution of Critical Events in
FR).

Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil

Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked
or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all
time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately
transitory.

Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and
names attached to it that ring down through the setting's
history. It is not an evil that pops up purely to give the
players something to strive against and defeat before moving
on to the next evil that similarly appears out of relative
nowhere.

Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood,
Aerdi, Kas, even Turrosh Mak, all met this criteria. They
are highly personified forces that spring from the settings
specific history. By comparison, evil in the Forgotten
Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards and
Zhentrim. Menaces appear from nowhere or with on the spot
histories that never before appeared in the setting.
Greyhawk allows for this type of toaster villainy but it
also established from the first villains of a historic
character that transcend the needs of the adventure of the
moment.

Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety

Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gambit from the cosmic
menace of Tharzidun, to the planar peril of Lolth, to the
cambion menace of Iuz, to the purely moral menace of Turrosh
Mak. Their is variety in the villainy. Villainy in
Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never
know for sure what you are going to get (Best Example: The
Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do not announce
themselves; you have to figure it out.

Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety
isn't there. You have scads of godly villains. The Red
Wizards. The Zhents. It is feast or famine. And FR
villains have signature trademarks that all but announce who
you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster
pastry.

Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The
Iuz/Vecna conflict being perhaps the most famous. In other
settings, villains are villains, identified by their clearly
visible placards, sandwich signs or more "subtly" their
black attire. You can count on them to always do the wrong
thing.

Greyhawk keeps you guessing. Like a good Call of
Cthulthu adventure.

Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price

Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will
trouble the land no more, to the full voiced cheers of the
crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked. He will be back but
you will have to deal with a likely enraged Zuggotomy in the
meanwhile. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum and
neither do Greyhwk's heroes. Everything is linked.

Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it
more than a solitary act echoing in the vastness. It
attracts attention, good and ill. It is immediate and
brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk about.
Notables exist to recognize your accomplishments and to
measure you against themselves and the foe you defeated.
And, they will have likely played little or no role in your
victory. Evil too takes your measure for darker reasons.

This criterion can best be seen in the breach. The
interconnection of people and places and the loose ends
creates this effect, though few published adventures use it
to motivate future adventures. The revised supermodule
series provides the greatest opportunity on this score.

Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality

On Oerth, the forces of neutrality are arguably at
least as powerful as those of good and evil and certainly as
active.

Iquander alone has accurately defined this
characteristic of Greyhawk and I acknowledge his work.
Greyhawk is not concerned with the triumph of good over
evil. The very nature of the evils loose on Oerth makes
such triumphs fleeting at best. Greyhawk endures evil and
circumvents it. It does not defeat it.

Evil forces, of course, will attempt to conquer Oerth.
And just as certainly they will be opposed by forces who
will seek to banish evil from the world. Neither will
succeed. Neither in the long history of Oerth has ever
succeeded. Good and evil are well enough matched that
outcomes are never certain and always close calls one way or
the other.

Moreover, evil on Oerth is not monolithic. Various
demon lords and ladies contend with each other. Iuz battles
Vecna. Kas seeks Vecna's destruction. Iuz feuds with his
mother and father. Evil beings are true to no one save
themselves.

Perhaps accounting for all of this, Oerth has strong
and active neutrally aligned forces, working to preserve a
balance between good and evil. While hardly organized,
these forces nonetheless manage to be quite effective. The
Circle of Eight, mighty wizards all, seeks a middle path.
Istus, the divine Lady of Fate, tests all but favors none.
Druids are a quiet but ever present presence. Indeed, many
of Greyhawk's deities reflect a distinct neutral bent.

Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the
Seven Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of
magic), the Harpers, the Lords of Waterdeep and activist
gods. Evil is on the run and kept that way. It has but few
strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving long
enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good
triumphs on Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The
horror you never heard of before yesterday is laid to rest.
The bad gods are thrown down!


The differences could not be more striking. Greyhawk
is about struggle against evenly matched and long standing
opponents. FR is about victory over transient and
overmatched opponents.

Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics

Greyhawk is not a low fantasy setting save by
comparison to settings on magical overload. Birthright is a
low fantasy setting. The Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy
setting. Greyhawk falls in between.

What distinguishes magic in Greyhawk is that it is
highly personalized. Look at the spells. Mordenkain's
this. Nystul's that. Otiluke's the other. Magic is
personalized by any wizard not of the hedge variety. Look
at the artifacts for still more proof. What Birthright
strives to achieve sparingly, Greyhawk has already
accomplished in fair profusion. Spells have a history as
due magic items. While there are +1 swords of no certain
fame, many are the items with specific histories. Look at
the Greyhawk Adventures hardback.

Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal.
Greyhawk does not know great guilds of wizards but
flourishes with a developed system of apprenticeships. One
need but look at the Circle of Eight to see this. They,
with one, possibly two, exceptions, belong to no guild of
mages, and they that do belong do so as patrons at best and
more probably as figureheads. Neither can the Circle itself
be considered a guild. This mighty example and the utter
lack of a single magical guild of any note, fairly well
makes the case.

I will at a later point post more directly on this
subject as I found the article in the Oerth Journal about
wizardly organizations purest fantasy, out of keeping with
the available information on magic in Greyhawk, though the
article was still interesting for all that.

These then are the eight traits that define the Greyhawk
feel. Most critical are 1st (Applied Internal Historic
Consistency), 4th (Persistent Personified Evil) and 7th
(Militant Neutrality) points. At the barest minimum to be
considered truly "Greyhawk" a product or creation must
adhere to these three criteria. Better products or
creations adhere to progressively more of these criteria.

Without doing a full dress analysis of From the Ashes, I
think we can see that it utterly fails to adhere to the 7th
criterion. FtA throws neutrality out the window in favor of
paring off goods and evils in a Flaneass tilted wildly
toward evil. Furondy/Nyrond is pared off with Iuz. Aerdi
is pared off with Nyrond. Keoland is paired off with the
Scarlet Brotherhood/Pomarj. While overall, evil is clearly
ascendent. This sort of dark fantasy, whatever its merits
otherwise, defies the tradition of active neutrality that
defined Greyhawk beforehand. That about half all WoG
players rejected FtA supports this hypothesis. FtA's
designers, to include the Greyhawk Wars, were ignorant,
willfully or otherwise, of the setting in which they worked.
The resulting products while technically proficient, even
well done on their own merits, were sadly lacking in that
Greyhawk feel. Of course, some would choose to ignore this,
finding the change "bracing," others with duller senses
wouldn't even notice.

In any event, now we have a list of what puts the Grey in
the Hawk. This list is by no means exclusive. I may have
overlooked something and I know some listed criteria are of
lesser note than others or mere permutations. However, I
think overall the list can stand up to close scrutiny. Have
at it.

 

[Ariosto]

For a start, it was the first major commercial D&D campaign setting after the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Gary Gygax drew on his own, original Greyhawk campaign in designing the product, with AD&D specifically in mind.

Although much has since been written about it, the world in the original folio or later boxed set remains one sketched only in broad strokes. Some people like the sense of freedom to make the setting their own.

 

[aboyd]

I don't think Greyhawk is special the way that Dark Sun is. Dark Sun has a clear theme and gameplay is altered to cater to that theme. When people play Dark Sun, they know the are getting into an apocalyptic desert world, or something like that.

Greyhawk is a little different. First, yes, there is nostalgia. Greyhawk is where a lot of the initial big names came from -- Mordakein (sp?), Rary, all those powerful guys who have spells named after them. For those of us playing from the beginning, history is a powerful tie.

Second, while Greyhawk doesn't have a specific theme, it is nice in the sense that many themes play well in Greyhawk, so you don't have to feel limited. There is piracy for those who like playing Swashbucklers and such. There is the Scarlett Brotherhood, for those who like playing asian themes. I mean, ninjas and samurais fit in well with the Brotherhood, although they're pretty evil, so you might not have lots of friendly nice samurais running around.

Also, for DMs who like to create their own monsters, the Scarlet Brotherhood has an island called Bos Lofsok (or something like that) where they have been creating hybrids and other monstrous freaks to unleash upon their enemies. It's nice to have an in-game place where you can slot that stuff in and feel like it fits the theme.

On the eastern side, you have a huge number of islands (can't recall the name, it's had two or three over the centuries, one was Lendore) where elves have retreated in a sorta Lord-of-the-Rings style, but with a twist in that they are pretty racist/isolationist and will just raid and kill non-elven ships that come near them.

Near those islands you have Rel Astra, possibly the biggest city in Greyhawk (bigger than Greyhawk city itself). Rel Astra is interesting because it is run by an evil undead creature called an animus (Lord Drax) with a right-hand-man who is a two-headed demon or devil called the Fiend-Sage of Rel Astra. These guys walk the streets and don't seem to have trouble being overthrown, apparently because they're pretty good at running the city and the citizens think that makes them pretty decent rulers.

You can throw some more mechanized/Eberron stuff into Rel Astra -- I've done a couple of "clockwork" adventures there -- while still having other lands be more traditional fantasy.

There is a lot of fascinating history to Greyhawk. I'm currently running a game in the years right after something called the "Flight of Fiends." This was a time when Iuz, an evil demigod or something like that, unleashed demons upon Greyhawk, essentially destroying the entire continent. However, the Fiend-Sage turned against his own kind (I think?) and used an artifact called the Crook of Rao to run every demon/devil (except himself) off the planet. I'm doing this in a 3.5 edition game, but what it gives me is something like the 4th edition "points of light" scenario. Most stuff is ransacked, humanity is on the ropes, and things be wild.

There are lots of other locations that provide good feature-rich environments for DMs to exploit. There can be areas so backward that people live in tents & caves, all the way up to very advanced cities like Rel Astra, which probably should resemble something more like Tarant from Arcanum than anything else.

The other very compelling thing about Greyhawk is that Living Greyhawk (where locations in Greyhawk are mapped to real-world locations and then players in those locations play out and even set the course of events & history) is the first and longest-running living campaign. Stuff that real-world players have done in Living Greyhawk has made it into official timelines and such. There is a web site to join up, I can't recall the name. But I have to say that such a thing is very compelling to many.

The other thing that I personally like about Greyhawk is something rather obscure -- most people don't use it, and it doesn't even show up on many official maps. That is, Hepmonaland. This is something like a spinoff continent to the south of Greyhawk, full of lush jungle, tribal natives, and hyper-dangerous unexplored territory. To me, it's a great excuse to try all sorts of new things, or to throw a monkey-wrench into an otherwise predictable campaign. Jungle, Mayan, Incan, Egyptian, Indiana Jones, all those themes might fit in very well.

Oh, and throwing Planescape portals into Greyhawk seems fitting. Not so much in Dark Sun. It's certainly possible for any DM to do anything he/she wishes, but I'd never have players going from Sigil to Dark Sun and back. It simply doesn't "feel" right. However, I'd have players going from Sigil to Greyhawk and back, no problem. Clearly extra-planar creatures were already gateing in from Baator and such, so it's not much of a stretch.

 

[Mikaze]

Oh, and throwing Planescape portals into Greyhawk seems fitting. Not so much in Dark Sun. It's certainly possible for any DM to do anything he/she wishes, but I'd never have players going from Sigil to Dark Sun and back. It simply doesn't "feel" right.

According to Planescape, people who arrive on the planes from Athas aren't in any real hurry to go back home anyway. (though a few do try to set up a lucrative water-trade)

Interesting read so far. I've always seen Greyhawk as the "original generic, anything goes but with more internal consistancy than Mystara" setting. Nothing against Mystara, of course. The insane grab-bag of that setting was most appealed to me in that setting.

 

[alleynbard]

Greyhawk has always been my favorite setting. Part of that is simply a feeling that I can't describe. In many ways, what makes D&D the game it is comes from Greyhawk. It is the seed of everything we have today.

Greyhawk is wide open with opportunity. You were given a framework and expected to color everything else in yourself. Sure you had the classic modules (Temple of Elemental Evil, Slavers, Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths of the Earth) but those were opportunities for adventure, not admonishments on how the setting should be run. It has just enough flavor to be unique but not so much that I felt restrained. It was the ultimate medieval setting.

Even the post war setting produced during 2e was loose enough to allow for individual DM development. I wasn't fond of Living Greyhawk and how it treated the world. But that is another story all together.

Honestly though, I am not sure how Greyhawk would look in 4e. From a mechanics standpoint, I have no worries. So long as they don't try to explain the changes in magic, I think it will be fine. Just pretend nothing has changed. I hope they learned from the Forgotten Realms release.

What I am worried about is all the material produced for Living Greyhawk. How does that fit into the setting? If you make it all official, that is a monumental undertaking. If you pretend it didn't happen, you risk angering people who put a lot of work into the setting during those years. So what do you do?

In fact, Greyhawk in general is rather touchy. You have fans who believe only Gygax produced material is legit. You have other fans who don't mind the material produced during 2e but were unhappy with what happened in 3e. Finally, you have those who came to the setting late, likely during Living Greyhawk and/or from Paizo's time on Dungeon and Dragon.

Each group is unique and how do you please them all? In reality, you don't. But I wouldn't want to be the one calling the shots on that project. You would take a ton of heat.

In my ideal world, as a 4e fan and Greyhawk fan, the next setting is Greyhawk. I hope they don't try to integrate Living Greyhawk overly much because that task would be too vast for the format Wizards is pursuing with their settings. But I also hope they don't discard it out of hand because of the work that was put into it. Perhaps they could release a Grand History of Flanaess to help handle that? I don't know. In any case, I hope the setting would be kept simple while hearkening back to the classics.

Beyond that, I sincerely hope they purchase the rights to do Castle Zagyg from the Gygax family (which would explain why it disappeared) and release the early levels as the primary adventure for the setting. Subsequent levels can be released via DDI. Castle Zagyg, better known as Castle Greyhawk, is the original core of the setting and it would be nice to see it placed into context. So I would really dig that. Barring this, an update to the original Temple of Elemental Evil would be cool, likely in the same format (early levels in print form, the rest on the DDI).

As a side note, if I was a betting man, I would say the release of Hommlet is a precursor to the Temple. But I think it will be presented on the DDI exclusively. That format is perfect for something of that magnitude.

I know, its a pipe dream. But I can hope, can't I?

 

[alleynbard]

I think Nitescreed defined the nuts & bolts of the setting best

I agree. That is the best explanation of the setting I had ever seen. From the day I first came across it to the present, that statement has guided every campaign I have ever run in Greyhawk.

 

[alleynbard]

Sorry about wandering a bit off topic there.

 

[Desdichado]

This may sound flippant, but it's not. If you have to ask, the answer is: nothing. Seriously; there's nothing objective about Greyhawk that makes it unique, unusual, or special. From a purely objective standpoint, it simply fails to meet any criteria of "special" whatsoever.

However, for the folks who grew up playing it, Greyhawk and D&D are basically synonomous. To them, Greyhawk is D&D. The flavor of D&D is Greyhawk and the flavor of Greyhawk is D&D. It's the creation of Gary Gygax himself, it's his distillation of what fantasy gaming is supposed to be like and about. In fact, a lot of that really long post above I'd disagree with; that doesn't characterize early Greyhawk products. Like, the original Greyhawk product, which was really more a set of houserules than anything else, nor does it really characterize what (relatively little) I know about Gary's home campaign back in the day.

Lots of its fans will try to tell you what Greyhawk means to them, what it is, but I don't think the actual words coming from them are nearly as convincing as the passion. Greyhawk is D&D. It boggles my mind a bit that the guy above who was quoted from elsewhere would cite realistic historicity, or however he worded it, as a hallmark of Greyhawk. Greyhawk was a haphazard mash-up of whatever Gygax was interested in, and that meant jumping around all over the place without much logic or sense, quite frequently.

Just like D&D.

All that said, I'm not really a big fan... Greyhawk is too vanilla for my tastes. By a long shot.