What is the difference between Ability Damage and penalty to an ability?

[RigaMortus]

Say between Ray of Enfeeblement and some other spell that does actual Ability Damage... What are the differences?

Can I "crit" with Ray of Enfeeblement?

 

[mikebr99]

Say between Ray of Enfeeblement and some other spell that does actual Ability Damage... What are the differences?

Can I "crit" with Ray of Enfeeblement?

There are 2 conditions WRT abilities...

Ability Damaged:​

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The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.
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Ability Drained: The character has permanently lost 1 or more ability score points. The character can regain these points only through magical means. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.
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And... You sure can critical with Ray of Enfeeblement. You can even sneak attack with it.​

Mike​

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[RigaMortus]

Can Ray of Enfeeblement stack with itself? It is a penalty to Str, so I assume no. As opposed to Ability damage, which would stack with itself. Correct?

If I Sneak Attack with RoE, does the SA damage add to the penalty to my Str, or is it actual HP damage?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And... You sure can critical with Ray of Enfeeblement. You can even sneak attack with it.

Actually, you can do neither with Ray of Enfeeblement.

Or, rather, you can score a critical hit with the Ray, but it has no extra effect.

Ray gives your target an Enhancement penalty to Strength. It causes no damage.

Some other attacks - namely, poison and the touch of certain undead - do ability damage.

The difference is that a penalty to Strength goes away when the spell that caused it ends normally or is dispelled.

Actual ability damage heals at 1 point per day, and can be healed by other spells.

To respond to the above: Penalties of all forms stack. So, you could hit someone with two Rays of Enfeeblement. Note, however, that the spell cannot reduce a target's effective Strength score to less than 1.

 

[ken-ichi]

I agree on the two type of ability modifications, damage and draining (a form of semi permanent damage).
The main differences are ability damage is regained at a rate of 1 per day (more with heal checks and full bed rest). Ability drain requires spells like Restoration to recover.
However, Ray of Enfeeblement does neither of those two things.
Ray of Enfeeblement applies a Strength penalty. This is even weaker than ability damage because the Str penalty only lasts for a short time (1 min./level), also the targets Str cannot be lowered to less than 1 by this spell.
"The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1."

From what I remember about sneak attacks and criticals is they increase damage being applied, but they will not increase a penalty being applied.

If Ray of Enfeeblement actually dealt Strength damage, then it would be able to critical and deal twice the Strength damage. You would also be able to sneak attack with it and deal xd6 points of hit point damage, not ability damage.
The sneak attack damage might be considered negetive energy damage because the spell is a necromantic spell and there is no energy type given in the spell, but I am not sure on this part.

So I believe that it is not possible to crit or sneak with ray of enfeeblement.

 

[mikebr99]

Actually, you can do neither with Ray of Enfeeblement.

Or, rather, you can score a critical hit with the Ray, but it has no extra effect.

Where is that written?

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Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.
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And...​

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A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.
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If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).
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Mike
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[Nyarlathotep]

Where is that written?

[

Your second quote answers that .

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't deal any damage, or any ability damage, it gives a penalty to STR. There are a couple of threads here on it. If you can't search let me know and I'll try to pull up some links for you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where is that written?

Well, you just quoted it. Ray of Enfeeblement is not a weaponlike spell; it does not deal hit point damage, ability damage, or energy drain.

It inflicts an ability penalty... which is not damage of any sort.

-Hyp.

 

[AuraSeer]

Where is that written?[/left]

In the spell description, where it says "the subject takes a penalty to Strength" (emphasis mine). It applies a penalty; it does not do damage. Since there's damage of any kind (not even ability damage), theres nothing that can be multiplied on a critical.

You can't crit with ray of enfeeblement any more than you could with ray of exhaustion or temporal stasis, or any other nondamaging spell that includes a touch attack.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd answer the question, but you and they already did.