D&D General what is the difference between enchantment magic and illusion magic?

[Mind of tempest]

It's magic. If you're looking for logic in magic, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

D&D magic schools are thematically weak. Conjuration, evocation, they're just synonyms. Necromancy vs. healing? It's all what you want to make of it. A FIRE school on the other hand - that I can get behind. I know what that's all about. BOOM!

I should totally make a game with a fire school. What?

fire is too limited just make the school of kill/break stuff with different damage types most things end up going towards that.

That's because you're looking at the same basic metal/methodology as part of the analogy when the difference between illusion and enchantment is wider. You're loading your analogy.
Illusion magic nudges the mind to make the illusion more believable while enchantments do more to outright override the target's will. Think of them as affecting different parts of the mind - sensory input and interpretation vs free will.

your will is informed by the thousands of sensory inputs, to cast hold monster I merely disrupt the signals from the brain to the body for sleep I simply replicate the signal that tells you to sleep what is that if not messing with none will or more exactly senses?

 

[Minigiant]

what is the difference between enchantment magic and illusion magic? as they both deal with deceiving the mind so why not just merge them into one easy to use school?

Only Enchantment deceives the "mind".
Illusion deceives the senses. Illusion magic tricks the eyes and ears into giving the mind the wrong info.
Enchantment attempts to replace or shut off part of your "mind"

I always thought that Illusion should have it's own save. Having them both "Will" saving throws felt off. Sorta how Fortitude covered immunity and stability felt off.

If D&D does a 5.5e or 6e, I'm for resisting Illusions being mostly a Wisdom saving throw and resisting Enchantments being mostly a Charisma one.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Only Enchantment deceives the "mind".
Illusion deceives the senses. Illusion magic tricks the eyes and ears into giving the mind the wrong info.
Enchantment attempts to replace or shut off part of your "mind"

I always thought that Illusion should have it's own save. Having them both "Will" saving throws felt off. Sorta how Fortitude covered immunity and stability felt off.

If D&D does a 5.5e or 6e, I'm for ressting Illusions being mostly a Wisdom saving throw and resisting Enchantments being mostly a Charisma one.

if I cut your mind off from your senses it would break down in mere days to nothing, your sense are more or less your mind as without them you simply do not respond, mind is lots of things working together not an organ.

so what other than "will" is the difference?

 

[steeldragons]

They are distinctly related/similar. No one is suggesting otherwise. They both effect the mind to varying degrees. Seems people have been quite clear...and you'rejust refusing to accept a difference.

The one deals in the senses...perceptions, figments, images and sound, light, shadow, color. Can it deal in or change "minds" and/or "feelings," sure. But it does so by tricking the mind or feelings with sensory [illusions] and extra-sensory [phantasms] perceptions.

The other deals in minds and feelings, period...Altering them. Attacking them. Can it deal in images and light and sound? Sure. It can. But it doesn't have to.

In my homebrew, I make no distinction between "Illusionist" mages and "Enchanter" mages [or, rather, what is called an "Enchanter" in world is not just "a mage who focuses in enchantment magic."], but there is a distinction between Illusion Magic -"the Art of Imagining"- and Enchantment Magic -"the Art of Feeling."

There are very few spells of any school that are only and entirely composed of a single, shall we say, "frequency" of magic. The composition and proper casting of spells require a magic-worker to understand the "calculations" and "formulae" of combining all of the ingredients properly...or you don't get a spell effect. It's part and parcel of the reason Joe Farmer who hears and sees the PC mage waves his hands and say "Ibilis inik tangelo" can't just get a group of goblins to fall asleep by doing the same thing. It takes years of training to figure out how to take ABC glyphs, syllables, shards of comprehension from THIS part of "Arcane Magic," and putting it in/with/around the XYZ from THAT part of Arcane Magic and add them together into the right motion and syllables and designs to end up with "gigantic explosion of fire."

MOST "Illusionist" spells are illusion (whether or not they are also a phantasm). Many also combine with enchantment effects, and several overlap into conjuration (generating materials or energies which).

Hypnotic Pattern...is it an illusion or an enchantment? There is a swirl of luminous color (illusion) that hypnotizes the onlookers (enchantment). The argument could also be made that the generating of that swirling pattern -whether you wish to flavor it as "colored light, rainbow mist, energetic plasma," whatever stuff- is conjuration (generating matter/independent things) and/or evocation (generating energy). But, ultimately, the spell effect is a visual image effect that alters the mental state of its target(s) = illusion & enchantment.

One is light, color, shadow, darkness, fooling and/or tricking visual/audial/mental perceptions. "I see a rainbow pattern swirling and undulating over and over and..." While, in reality, there is nothing "real," solid, tangible, there.
One is just straight up direct "usurping" (for lack of a better term) and/or dominating thought, emotion, psychology. SEEING the TRICK [magic rainbow pattern] of the illusion, "It's so lovely...I just want to watch...So pretty...I just want...I ju-<drool, blank stare>..." THAT is all going on in the target's head. Directly scrambling their mental state...the enchantment.

 

[Morrus]

fire is too limited just make the school of kill/break stuff with different damage types most things end up going towards that.

You clearly have a very specific personal idea of where the boundary lines should be.

 

[Minigiant]

if I cut your mind off from your senses it would break down in mere days to nothing, your sense are more or less your mind as without them you simply do not respond, mind is lots of things working together not an organ.

so what other than "will" is the difference?

Illusion spells usually don''t separate your senses from your mind. That's high level magic.
Illusion spells usually project a false sensory image around a target or to a target. Or shuts off a stimulation and replaces it with a fake.

Alter self doesn't change your mind. It puts a fake image around the casting mage. You see the image. You see the mage as the prince.
Illusionary Dragon creates a fake dragon out of shadows.
Silence turns off sound. You aren't real deaf. There is just no sound in the zone reaching your ears.
At best, illusions can make patterns to stimulate your mind.

Enchantment. Enchantment attempts to supplant your personality or mind with one created by the wizard with magic.

 

[steeldragons]

Yeah. Arcane Magic breakdown in my world has been altered somewhat.

There is Illusion and Enchantment magic, but only Illusionist [specialist] mages.

There is Conjuration and Evocation magic, but only Conjuror [specialist] mages. There are no "Evokers," as such. If one wants to just be "blasty-mage damage-guy" that's up to the player to seek out those spells that do that, and then overwhelmingly prepare damage-dealing energy spells. "Blaster mage" is a mode of play, not a character archetype. There is a homebrewed caste of elementalist mages whose spells include all energy-generating and conjuration spells of their [cardinal] element type, but also incorporate certain other kinds of thematic spells associated with their element [mostly those qualities associated per the tarot], called "Elemancers."

Necromancy has actually been expanded to include "Vivocation" [positive energy/life-related & healing magic]. Together they form the "School of Pneuma." I borrowed the term from the ancient greek word for "Spirit." I figure that covered the bases of "Life/Death/Positive/Negative Energy Magic" that deals in souls and healing and undead and Radiant/Necrotic damage types. All the life-dead-afterlife stuff. So, there are Necromancers, but there are also "Vivokers"...or "Vivorcerers." I vacillate on which I like better.

Abjuration Magic includes a great deal of Divination. The best defense is best and most effective if it is informed. Knowing what it is you need protection from is essential for the highly respected "Abjurists." [I just like the sound of it better than "Abjur-er." blech.]

But, I still have Diviners as their own/separate specialist and school in-world. "The Art of Knowing" is, after all, at the very base of all magical belief and practice...seeking and mastering what is Unknown. Those for whom the Unknown /is/ Known is the very definition of a magic-user.

Transmutation is, of course, also quintessential to what all mythological and historic "Magic/Sorcery/Miracle" is. "The Art of Changing [What is]," making one thing to another is the very core of what is believed to be "magic." So transmutation spells are found in just about everyone's arsenal to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

This is very easy basic stuff.

Enchantments act on the dry humors through color imbalances and sympathetic attractions. On the other hand, illusions separate one from the truth of the Gods and allow for anchorhitic attacks of the central biss.

As you can clearly see, they're completely different things. I mean really, could you imagine a color imbalance on a biss?! The numerology just wouldn't add up.

 

[cbwjm]

This is very easy basic stuff.

Enchantments act on the dry humors through color imbalances and sympathetic attractions. On the other hand, illusions separate one from the truth of the Gods and allow for anchorhitic attacks of the central biss.

As you can clearly see, they're completely different things. I mean really, could you imagine a color imbalance on a biss?! The numerology just wouldn't add up.

Wut?

 

[TerraDave]

Illusionists--the stage magicians--were big in the 70s, which led to the class.

In the first PHB there where Illusionists and Magic Users. Illusionist don't get charm person, BTW, but do get Hypnotism. On the other hand they do get Fear earlier then magic-users. Schools are also there in the spell descriptions, but there is very little explanation of their meaning.

In 2E Illusionists are merged into the Wizard class, and become 1 of multiple specialists. Soon enough in 2e--there where a lot of supplements for 2e--other types of specialists outside the schools start to show up.

But really, something like evolved from a magazine article, into a sort of afterthought detail that there must be other schools, to the pretty good take on it in 5e, to this thread.