What is the new CR on this advanced Howler?

DM2

First Post
Using the 3.5 SRD, I've taken the base Howler (large, 6 HD, outsider), and advanced it to 12 HD (huge, 12 HD, outsider).

There are no CR or experience guidelines in the SRD...for those with good memories or their books with them, how does CR change as a monster advances in HD?

What is the new CR of my Howler?

Did I advance it correctly (I advanced everything except the CR and the Skills).

Here it is!

HOWLER
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 12d8+48 (126 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+29
Attack: Bite +21 melee (3d8+9)
Full Attack: Bite +21 melee (3d8+9) and 1d4 quills +16 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Quills, howl
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +10
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 6,
Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Climb +14, Hide +8, Listen +13, Move Silently +12,
Search +7, Spot +13,
Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Environment: A chaotic-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or pack (6–10)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 7–9 HD (Large); 11–18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort)

Howlers live on planes where chaos and evil hold sway. A howler is about 8 feet long and weighs about 2,000 pounds.
Although they are surprisingly intelligent, howlers do not speak—they only howl. If there is a language within the howls, as some have suggested, even spells cannot decipher it. Howlers understand Abyssal.

COMBAT
Howlers attack in groups, for they are cowardly and cruel. They prefer to charge into combat, race out, and then charge in again. A howler’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Quills (Ex): A howler’s neck bristles with long quills. While biting, the creature thrashes about, striking with 1d4 of them.

An opponent hit by a howler’s quill attack must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or have the quill break off in his or her flesh. Lodged quills impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per quill. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A quill can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a quill deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.

Howl (Ex): All beings other than outsiders that hear the creature’s howling for an hour or longer are subject to its effect, though it does not help the howler in combat. Anyone within hearing range of a howler for a full hour must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or take 1 point of Wisdom damage. The save DC is Charisma-based. The save must be repeated for each hour of exposure. This is a sonic mind-affecting effect.

Thanks,

DM2
 

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SRD - Impriving Monsters:

Other Modifiers:
Size increased to Large or larger +1 to CR
Monster's ability scores based on elite array* +1 to CR
Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness +2 to CR
Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that improve combat effectiveness in a minor way +1 to CR
Template added + template CR modifier
* Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.

So...


+1 Size increase
+1 'qualities that improve combat effectiveness' double HD

So, CR should be +2. making it 5

Note: If you advance HD, you also get to add feats to ALL creatures now, 1 per 3 extra HD
 
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Wippit Guud said:
+1 Size increase
+1 'qualities that improve combat effectiveness' double HD

So, CR should be +2. making it 5

Note: If you advance HD, you also get to all feats to ALL creatures now, 1 per 3 extra HD

Technically correct, but HD increases actually have their own CR modifier. For outsiders, it is +1 per two HDs, for a +3 increase (a total +4 with the size increase). Thus, the CR would be 7.

Edit: For your interest, the guidelines we used are in the Improving Monsters part of the SRD.
 
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How in the abyss did I miss the first half of the chart?

Creature's Original Type CR Increase
Aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, vermin +1 per 4 HD added
Animal, magical beast, monstrous humanoid +1 per 3 HD added
Dragon, outsider, nonassociated class levels +1 per 2 HD or 2 levels added
Directly associated class levels +1 per level added
Other Modifiers:
Size increased to Large or larger +1 to CR
Monster's ability scores based on elite array* +1 to CR
Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness +2 to CR
Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that improve combat effectiveness in a minor way +1 to CR
Template added + template CR modifier
* Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)

CR 7 it is...
 

As Wippit said, it should have two more feats.

Base Howler 6HD, 3 feats (1,3,6)
Advanced Howler 12HD 5 feats (1,3,6,9,12)
 

Thanks for the input. I forgot to choose the 2 extra feats.

I also totally failed to look onwards in the monster improvement section to see that there is CR information after all the template advancement information. Great!

Man, that will be a pretty wicked beast even at CR 7! It really can't miss with +21 melee, and 3d8+9 damage is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention the incidental quill attacks.

Thanks...thats the first monster advancement I've done since I started DM'ing.

Any recommended feats? I was thinking power attack, but that seemed a little odd for a creature that is purely biting with incidental quill attacks.

One nasty choice would be the Improved Natural Attack feat for its bite attack...bump it to 4d8+9.

DM2
 

10 ft reach, and it already has combat reflexes, give it Improved Trip, keep them out of melee range with it. And then give it that Improved Natural Attack, that just makes it sicker.
 

DM2 said:

Any recommended feats?

Although suboptimal... I think that Dodge and Mobility fit in well with its preferred tactics of rushing in and then withdrawing from melee... It then puts it on the path to Spring Attack.

btw Doing a little conversion of a popular module?
 

smetzger said:


Although suboptimal... I think that Dodge and Mobility fit in well with its preferred tactics of rushing in and then withdrawing from melee... It then puts it on the path to Spring Attack.

btw Doing a little conversion of a popular module?

One you're apparently familiar with to recognize the 12 hd howler :-)
 

Feat Choices

With only two feats, I'd consider Improved Critical for the Quills (more attacks means more rolls) and Improved Natural Attack on the Bite.
 

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