D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Corinnguard]

The Archivist is the closest to the "noncombatant PC who knows things"

The Archivist IMO sounds like it would be an archetype of Level Up's Savant class.

Savant | Level Up

a5e.tools

Warriors rely on their physical prowess, and spellcasters have all manner of magic, but a savant needs no weapon or armor, only their mind. Brilliant ingenuity, meticulous planning, or keen deductions will win them the day and leave their enemies confused at how they were defeated.

Think Sherlock Holmes as a D&D character.

 

[Mecheon]

Let me just. Dredge this up

Psions absolutely are spellcasters. In fact, pretty close examination of them finds they have exactly the same lore as wizards with just some very minor variations in the costuming. This is hardly surprising since in the real world "psychic" was just traditional wizard-y magic redressed in a pseudo-scientific garb to try to give it some legitimacy, and it is actually "psychic" and not psionic that is the origin of D&D psionic tropes. I mean it's as big of a misnomer as "longsword" and "plate mail".

That they have different mechanics is a result of the tacked-on nature of psionics in 1e AD&D. It has nothing to do with the lore, and everything to do with player expectations of having a mechanical system that isn't spell slots.

No, psions aren't spellcasters. They're psions. Psychic stuff is closer to sci-fi as a 'this is what humanity becomes' type of deal. The original term may be different, but nowerdays its going to refer to a different thing, the whole reading minds, controling other people with your thoughts type of deal. Or, y'know, Mewtwo from Pokemon.

D&D's wizard is very specifically 'You have a spellbook and you cast these spells' type of deal. That isn't how psionics are displayed so I don't know why you've said they have the same lore because like... They demonstrateably dont? Amuro and Char from Gundam (Pick your favourite Gundam protag here, they're all basically Newtypes, except Domon who's the resident martial arts expert) doesn't lug out spellbooks, they're just naturally psychic (well, newtype), naturally got that whole link thing going on with other people, and can just push their respective mechs well beyond what they were desigend to do because of that. Mewtwo from Pokemon doesn't cast spells, he thinks and all of a sudden the joint is exploding all around him and he's doing shadow ball. Hell, Mewtwo we have the exact "He isn't a wizard" comparison because if you're gonna tell me that Mewtwo plays like the most Gish (there are no pure wizards), Robin, we're going to have to have Significant Questions. Here's a fight of two Ex ones of them going, are you actively saying these are both wizards? Tassadar from Starcraft (or heck, the entire Protoss force) don't cast Thought Talk or whatever, they can just project voices into other people and have a psychic link between them all, and merge together, sacrificing their flesh and blood to become huge, terrifying storms of energy that decimate my precious zergling hordes

The wizard, and hell the Magic User entirely, fails miserably at invoking what people want the psion to be. It has everything to do with the lore. It has everything to do with player's expectations at what a psychic character should be capable of. D&D's psionic tropes exist because of the larger use of psychic powers in fiction. Heck, the whole pyrokinetic stuff is just Carrie

We've seen what happens if you remove psion anyway in this edition. People just, invent a new one. Over and over. Multiple times. Because all of the attempts thus far have failed to scratch that itch, and wizard certainly ain't doing it. Didn't do it in 1E, and certainly hasn't done it now.

 

[Aldarc]

Paladin has good "knight in shining armor" vibes that make its narrative consequences less dependent on the deity. It's the kind of place that'd be a good home for a variety of "elite warrior" figures. Cavaliers, samurai, tribal champions, knights in shining armor, ronin, blackguards, death knights, dwarven thanes, shield maidens, etc., etc.

Cleric depends so much on the god and this "heal and buff" legacy that they don't have much of an identity apart from those two pieces. And if you distribute role responsibilities and you distribute your world's religion...you loose most of the reason for having the class.

The world still has priests, o'course, we just take the divinely powered adventurer and distribute it to classes that fit the actual vibes of the gods associated with the domains rather than one whose entire schtick is to cast spells themed to a kind of god.

Since we were talking about roles in the 4e Rob Heinsoo thread, I would just add briefly here that this was something that I liked about roles and power sources in 4e. 4e Dark Sun had the guts to do something that the original Dark Sun did not: it removed clerics from the game entirely! It did so by excluding the Divine power source classes (e.g., Paladin, Cleric, Avenger, Invoker). But the game could still function without worrying about heals because it had Martial, Primal, and Psionic leaders for healing and support: i.e., the Warlord, the Shaman, and the Ardent, respectively.

 

[GrimCo]

Psionics are just magic with different fluff and more suitable for SF or specific settings rather than classic high fantasy D&D usually falls into.. Mechanics wise, they operate the same. People liked them cause psionics bypassed antimagic, dispells, counter spells and spell resistance. Once you impose same limitations of spellcasting to psionics, people somehow tend not play them. In my experience at least.

 

[Aldarc]

Psionics are just magic with different fluff and more suitable for SF or specific settings rather than classic high fantasy D&D usually falls into.. Mechanics wise, they operate the same. People liked them cause psionics bypassed antimagic, dispells, counter spells and spell resistance. Once you impose same limitations of spellcasting to psionics, people somehow tend not play them. In my experience at least.

I played psionic characters all the time in 3e and PF1 (Dreamscarred Press) where anti-magic, spell resistance, and the like applied to psionics.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Psionics are just magic with different fluff and more suitable for SF or specific settings rather than classic high fantasy D&D usually falls into.. Mechanics wise, they operate the same. People liked them cause psionics bypassed antimagic, dispells, counter spells and spell resistance. Once you impose same limitations of spellcasting to psionics, people somehow tend not play them. In my experience at least.

see, this just feels to me like an ignorance or lack of respect for the base premise of what psionics is meant to be, it's explicitly NOT meant to just be refluffed magic, it is the power created by a distinct LACK of magic but you design psionics with the magic mechanics and SURPRISE! nobody wants to play the representation that entirely missed the fundamental point of the concept because you don't see anything past the surface level and reducing all supernatural stuff to 'magic'.

just because they both tell the time does not make a digital clock the same thing as a clockwork analogue one,

 

[Minigiant]

I think that really evolves to A matter of core D&D archetypes or those that are D&D adjacent.

Some concepts are now firmly seen as D&D.
Some concepts are hinted by D&D and are often expanded by individual editions or by D&D-clone.


Core D&D classes and their defining class mechanic

1. Artificer: Infusions
2. Babrbarian/Berserker: Rage
3. Bard: Inspiration/Bardsong
4. Cleric: Divine Fullcaster
5. Druid: Primal Fullcaster
6. Fighter: Weapon Mastery Specialization
7. Gish: Arcane Channeling
8. Monk/Master: Discipline/Ki/Focus
9. Paladin: Divine Smite
10. Psion: Devotions
11. Ranger: Mark/Quarry
12. Rogue: Sneak Attack
13. Sorcerer: Sorcery
14. Warlock: Invocations
15. Wizard: Wizard's Spellbook

D&D Adjacent classes and their defining class mechanic

1. Blood Hunter: Rites
2. Cavalier/Chosen: Favor
3. Duelist: Grace
4. Marshal/Warlord: Tactics
5. Rune Knight/Priest/Smith: Runes
6. Shaman: ????
7. Shifter: Forms
8. Summoner: Summoned Partner
9. Warblade: Maneuvers/Expliots

 

[TiQuinn]

People liked them cause psionics bypassed antimagic, dispells, counter spells and spell resistance.

That was never my experience. People didn’t play psionics because the rules stopped including them, or because the system or the effects for psionics were no different than magic.

 

[GrimCo]

see, this just feels to me like an ignorance or lack of respect for the base premise of what psionics is meant to be, it's explicitly NOT meant to just be refluffed magic, it is the power created by a distinct LACK of magic but you design psionics with the magic mechanics and SURPRISE! nobody wants to play the representation that entirely missed the fundamental point of the concept.

Lack of respect. Couldn't care less honestly. Call it psionic, magic, call it any way you want. They both do same thing. And usually use same game mechanics to do it. Psion- i use my mind powers to bend reality and light tings on fire. Caster- i use my innate power to manipulate energy and bend reality to light things on fire. Both can do it X/day, range X feet, save DCX, damage X dX.

just because they both tell the time does not make a digital clock the same thing as a clockwork analogue one,

Except, it does. Both of them have same purpose and do same thing. They are tools that tell time. To end user, it's all the same.

 

[Minigiant]

Lack of respect. Couldn't care less honestly. Call it psionic, magic, call it any way you want. They both do same thing. And usually use same game mechanics to do it. Psion- i use my mind powers to bend reality and light tings on fire. Caster- i use my innate power to manipulate energy and bend reality to light things on fire. Both can do it X/day, range X feet, save DCX, damage X dX.

I think the main concept behind psionics is psionics was the original Meta-Magic class.

Psions Where the first class to have several powers that had small intricate control over the spell over the Wizard having just a big effect that they have really no control or customization over.

Where a wizard could use magic to read your mind a Psion could read your mind pull out a memory and implant a fake one.

Over time Wizard fans in the community added such spells that allow these things but because they didn't originally have them the spells will be very very very high level and unavailable for play...

..unless you are a Psion.