D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah but that's always additional supplements for the wizard.

The trope of the base D&D wizard is that they don't fine and deliberate control over magic.

So you either

1) Add Psions who do
Or
2) Give Wizards the Psion niche

On the other hand 5e Sorcerers have more control over the few spells they know than wizards do. This is demonstrable by metamagic. Wizards are generalists with a spell for all purposes and collectors.

Which leads to option 3: Making Psions a subclass of Sorcerer.

 

[Minigiant]

On the other hand 5e Sorcerers have more control over the few spells they know than wizards do. This is demonstrable by metamagic. Wizards are generalists with a spell for all purposes and collectors.

Which leads to option 3: Making Psions a subclass of Sorcerer.

Sorcerers having fine control is a 5e thing.

In 3e and 4e, their tropes were POWUH! and Magical Reserves.

 

[Aldarc]

Sorcerers having fine control is a 5e thing.

In 3e and 4e, their tropes were POWUH! and Magical Reserves.

Their theme in 3e was simply "wanna be a wizard but hate traditional Vancian casting?"

 

[TwoSix]

Their theme in 3e was simply "wanna be a wizard but hate traditional Vancian casting?"

Whereas 5e is "Vanciann, but with 2 N's and the spells aren't where you think!"

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Not a fan of this 'make it a subclass' design approach. Every full class I've seen turned into a subclass has lost basically everything which made it fun and unique to play as its own class.

Only way I'd be happy with the 'three/four classes and everything is a subclass' approach, would be if subclasses took up the majority of the power budget and design space.

An example is eldritch knight and bladesinger when put next to duskblade, magus, and swordmage from other editions and systems. I absolutely adore all of those classes, but I despise EK so much that I changed class half way through a campaign to stop playing it.

 

[Corinnguard]

Only way I'd be happy with the 'three/four classes and everything is a subclass' approach, would be if subclasses took up the majority of the power budget and design space.

Doesn't most of the power budget and design space for each of the classes in 5e already go to the subclasses? IMO this seems to be the case when you compare a class like the 5e Fighter to its' counterparts in 5e-adjacent RPGs like Level Up (which has more class features to cover the three pillars- combat, exploration, and social interaction).

 

[CreamCloud0]

Doesn't most of the power budget and design space for each of the classes in 5e already go to the subclasses? IMO this seems to be the case when you compare a class like the 5e Fighter to its' counterparts in 5e-adjacent RPGs like Level Up (which has more class features to cover the three pillars- combat, exploration, and social interaction).

hmmm, i don't feel like it is,

like to start with just look at the amount of levels of features, just 4-5 from your subclass, a subclass might add a few extra resources, proficiencies or expanded spell list but your sneak attack, uncanny dodge, rage, unarmoured defense, fullcasting, martial weapons, extra attacks, ASI increases all those things come from (usually) base class.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Doesn't most of the power budget and design space for each of the classes in 5e already go to the subclasses? IMO this seems to be the case when you compare a class like the 5e Fighter to its' counterparts in 5e-adjacent RPGs like Level Up (which has more class features to cover the three pillars- combat, exploration, and social interaction).

In almost all classes, most of the power is in the base class, including their signature ability. This is why battlemasters maneuvers are a fraction of what warlord could do. Or why things like eldritch knight can only be a 1/3 caster with no spellstrike type abilities. If you made barbarian into a fighter sub, then its rage would need to be nerfed drastically in order to be balanced.

Artificer is the exception here, as it gets a ton of subclass abilities early on, including its 5th level feature which is a massive power jump. Rogue is the opposite, where if you play a 1-10 campaign you practically don't have a subclass.

 

[Mind of tempest]

On the other hand 5e Sorcerers have more control over the few spells they know than wizards do. This is demonstrable by metamagic. Wizards are generalists with a spell for all purposes and collectors.

Which leads to option 3: Making Psions a subclass of Sorcerer.

sorcerer is a badly built frame and has a feeling of being both mechanically and thematically lost, it is define more by not being a wizard than anything else

 

[Mind of tempest]

Wisdom - Druids, Clerics, Rangers. Also it's the Perception stat and the stat to protect against mind control. So almost no one ever dumps it. You see plenty of e.g. Cha 8 barbarians, but even Dexterity gets dumped more often than wisdom.

(And personally I'd either remove constitution from the game or roll it into one stat with strength).

ranger is not the powerful class it was back in 1e and 2e.
not many mind-control enemies in this edition.
the front-line line tanks are all still mad as hell, honestly balancing caster would be easer by making them more mad.
dex is the king of minmaxing this eddition.
druids and clerics are strong but that is full casting not wisdom not than anyone plays a wise druid or cleric.