D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

I'm not excluding this at all other than to point out Clarke's Law (that a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic). Magic is an overarching category.

If you want a psychic character who uses different mechanics play a Soulknife. Or a Psi Warrior. I'm not the game police. For that matter play a Mystic if your DM lets you use UA material. I've been advocating for this throughout.

I will repeat the Psion was not just someone who used magic, but a spellcaster, and a spellcaster where just about everything they did was to cast spells. And spells are the clearest and most unequivocal form of magic (a +2 sword, for example, may well be an incredible adamantium blade and monomolecular edge).

The ask here is "I want someone to cast spells just like a (spell point) wizard using the form of spells but I want to say that the ability to cast spells isn't magic".
the thing is not all magic should work the same, like was mentioned simplicity is the albatross around 5e's neck for interesting mechanics, and we don't want psionic abilities to 'just be psionic 'spells'', we want these things to fundamentally play and be different to what is already there, i mean, look at the warlock! it's still the same fundamental spell system but people love it for it's different take on the mechanics which truly makes it it's own class.

the soulknife and the psi warriors are the eldritch knights and arcane tricksters of psionics and you don't go in hoping to play a wizard and be satisfied when you come out with an eldritch knight.
 

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self-power is not the problem.
sorcerers suck for me on two levels mechanically they are uninteresting and are clearly the middle child of arcane classes.
thematically I hate them as it is either by blood or exposure to a magical thing that they gain powers that read like a protagonist backstory, not the ensemble character that dnd parties have to be built out of.
I hate backstories that amount to the inexplicably special in characters I play.
sure I could re-fluff but I will not as that is not who I am.
one day I read the mystic document it was love at first sight, it was like coming home which is impressive as I do not feel at home even in my own room.
Maybe every class isn’t for you? I mean having a special ancestry / background is a pretty common trope in the fantasy genre. I definitely think D&D should support that
 


@overgeeked

Was thinking same thing. Warrior, magic user, expert. Those 3 are core. Everything else is mix of those 3 or another flavor of one of those 3.
We are moving to three:
Martialist
Arcanist
Spirtualist
I think that the appeal of the Warrior, Mage, and Expert setup is that it speaks to the game pillars: Combat, Skills, and Magical Shenanigans.

An interesting point of comparison is with Green Ronin's revised Fantasy AGE System. It divided the rogue to create a new class. So there is the Warrior, the Envoy, the Rogue, and the Mage. What I find interesting about this setup is how there are likewise four major types of stunts - a feature of the game - Combat, Social, Exploration, and Magic. As it happens, the aforementioned classes tend to be a bit better at each of these respectively.
 

Why separate rogue from fighter if your not separating cleric from wizard? There is, or should be, as much separation, IMO, between a cleric and a wizard as there is between a fighter and a rogue
Because the fighter…fights while the rogue sneaks and explores. As above, they represent two different pillars of play focus. Combat and exploration. Fighter is queen of combat. Rogue is queen of exploration. Whereas the only real difference between a cleric and wizard is healing spells.
 

self-power is not the problem.
sorcerers suck for me on two levels mechanically they are uninteresting and are clearly the middle child of arcane classes.
Oh look! It's a Psion!

Seriously, both the 2e/3.0/3.5 psion and the 3.0/3.5 sorcerer written by an unimaginative student who went through plagiarising the wizard's homework, changed the spellbook, added one idea went through things with a thesaurus, and presented the copied work as their own.

Both had about one good idea each in their replacement for the spellbook that made it into core casting for 5e (taking away what was special about them) - whether spontaneous casting (of which spell points are a form) or upcasting.

There are two key differences between the two; the sorcerer was made copying the wizard's homework to give an excuse to squirrel more wizard spells into the game, while the psion was made copying the wizard's spellbook as a cash grab to sell more shovelware books. And the fact that the 4e and 5e sorcerer then had people work out how they could be different and useful to cover a wider range of concepts while the psion predates subclasses.
thematically I hate them as it is either by blood or exposure to a magical thing that they gain powers that read like a protagonist backstory, not the ensemble character that dnd parties have to be built out of.
I hate backstories that amount to the inexplicably special in characters I play.
So why do you put up with the "I am so special I get to cast weird customised spells by the power of my mind unlike normal casters, making me too special for normal magic school"? The psion is the poster child for inexplicably special characters in D&D - right down to 1e giving you a percentage chance for psionic powers.
sure I could re-fluff but I will not as that is not who I am.
one day I read the mystic document it was love at first sight, it was like coming home which is impressive as I do not feel at home even in my own room.
The mystic is much better. Partly because it's not Yet Another Caster (with spells cribbed off the wizard) except the lazy student has looked up an alternative to Caster in the thesaurus and come up with Manifester. Instead their things aren't presented, formatted, and contain the guff of spells. Partly because they haven't just lazily copied the wizard basic features.

But mostly because the blocks of powers you get from disciplines add theming, interest, and allow for interesting things done with design synergies.
the thing is not all magic should work the same,
And this is why the psion is a truly sucky class. It takes an interesting concept (psionics) and homogenises it into a generic power point spellcaster where the differences other than just splurging minor variants of spells over the sytem have been folded in ot the core casting method of 5e or into the Aberrant Mind.
like was mentioned simplicity is the albatross around 5e's neck for interesting mechanics, and we don't want psionic abilities to 'just be psionic 'spells'', we want these things to fundamentally play and be different to what is already there, i mean, look at the warlock! it's still the same fundamental spell system but people love it for it's different take on the mechanics which truly makes it it's own class.
And if you want that then don't even look at the Psion. We've had three core versions and as mentioned the good ideas have been folded into the core casting or the Aberrant Mind.

The Mystic is at least getting somewhere.
the soulknife and the psi warriors are the eldritch knights and arcane tricksters of psionics and you don't go in hoping to play a wizard and be satisfied when you come out with an eldritch knight.
Depends on the system. If it's one that isn't drowning in magic then you might.
 

Because the fighter…fights while the rogue sneaks and explores. As above, they represent two different pillars of play focus. Combat and exploration. Fighter is queen of combat. Rogue is queen of exploration. Whereas the only real difference between a cleric and wizard is healing spells.
That to me is looking at solely from a game perspective. We look at from a world building perspective:

Martial: natural abilities

Arcane: magic earned through study and research (stealing magic from the fabric of the cosmos), cast spells

Spiritual: magic given by another (god, patron, spirit contract), doesn’t cast spells
 
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That to me is looking at solely from a game perspective. We look at from a world building perspective:
Martial: natural abilities
Arcane: magic earned through study and research (stealing magic from the fabric of the cosmos)
Spiritual: magic given by another (god, patron, spirit contract)
Only if you build the world that way. There are other ways to build the world, such as what I posted above. That’s how a whole lot of anime, manga, light novels, etc build the world. It’s not about game mechanics. Healing is simply another type of magic, not something special and separate. There’s no inherent reason to make it divinely granted. That’s a worldbuilding choice not everyone will make. The distinction collapses if you build your world that way. And I do.
 

That to me is looking at solely from a game perspective. We look at from a world building perspective:
Martial: natural abilities
Arcane: magic earned through study and research (stealing magic from the fabric of the cosmos)
Spiritual: magic given by another (god, patron, spirit contract)
That is just as much of a game perspective as anything presented. 🤷‍♂️
 

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