D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Remathilis]

What would be your 6 to 12 casters?

I don't think I have a finite list, but my thoughts are:

Wizards are more generalists. They are dabblers in a lot of pots but lack the depth of any specialist. They get a smattering of different lists, but lack the more specific effects of the others.
Sorcerers are the blaster/elementalists
Cleric is healer/defensive and radiant magic
Druid is nature magic and summoning
Warlock is occult magic and spooky. If we insist on keeping warlock not a full caster, then add a Witch to be the full caster spooky
Bard is charms and illusions with a little buffing
Psion is mind magic, teleporting and telekinesis

I'd have to put some greater thought into it, but that's my off the top of my head list.

 

[Mind of tempest]

just because it is possible for some new players to understand how to play the game very quickly it is not a free pass nor good idea to therefore make the learning curve as steep as we possibly can.

having been a new player for 5e myself, at the time in my mid-20s, aparrently the 'most approachable ruleset' of DnD, let me just say it can still be pretty damn complicated, there is a very large wall of rules knowledge to this hobby, don't make it harder simply because you can.

it is a question of decent explanation and properly building things

 

[steeldragons]

Or ability dependent/defined classes in the major D&D archetypes...which would bring us to...24? Too many for an initial manual, really. But could be good (if I can come up with enough flavors of things to fill the slots...)

The Fighters - Weapons-/Combat-focused classes. Access to any/all varieties of armor and weapons. Various non-magic skills and abilities.
--Barbarian: Strength warrior class. Raw Damage fighter. Rage.
--Adept: Dex. warrior class. Unarmed fighter. Styles.
--Armiger: Con. warrior class. Broad combat-skills fighter. Maneuvers.
--Dungeoneer: Int. warrior class. Exploration-skills fighter. Tricks & Tasks.
--Swordmaster: Wis. warrior class. Weapon specialist fighter. Focus.
--Cavalier: Cha. warrior class. Knightly-trained fighter. Honor.

The Mystics - Support classes. Some degree of armor and weapon use with Magical powers channeling (primarily) an external power, possibly with spells (secondary)
--Paladin/Templar: Str. channeler class. Combat & Magic support mystic. Channel Divine(Deity, Non-deific Patron or Ideal), Smites.
--Psiloi: Dex. channeler class. Skills & Magic support mystic. Channel Aether(Psychic), Auras.
--Shaman: Con. channeler class. Magic support mystic. Channel Nature(Spirit World), Spirit Powers
--Warlock: Int. channeler class. Magic support mystic. Channel Arcane(Occult Patron), Invocations.
--Cleric: Wis. channeler class. Combat & Magic support mystic. Channel Divine(Deity), Domain Powers.
--Bard: Cha. channeler class. Skill & Magic support mystic. Channel Nature, Inspiration.

The Rogues - Skill-driven/focused classes. Generally lightly armored, variety of weapons use, often including ranged attacks. Non-magic skills and abilities ("Tricks & Tasks") assigned by class and then open to individual character (player choice) customized accumulation.
--Assassin/Bravo: Str. expert class. Fighting skills rogue. Tricks & Tasks.
--Acrobat: Dex. expert class. Maneuverability skills rogue. Tricks & Tasks.
--Ranger: Con. expert class. Wilderness skills rogue. Tricks & Tasks.
--Thief: Int. expert class. Stealth/infiltration skills rogue. Tricks & Tasks.
--Alchemist: Wis. expert class. Magic skills rogue. Tricks & Tasks.
--Rake: Cha. expert class. Interactions/persuasion skills rogue. Tricks & Tasks.

The Wizards - Magic-/Supernatural-driven focused classes. Limited or no armor, severely limited weapons. Magic is harnessed/controlled through knowledge/training/other internal personal effort.
--Swordmage: Str. magic-using class. Combat supernatural wizard. Arcane(Occult) powers. Orders subclasses.
--Illusionist: Dex. magic-using class. Perception/deception specialist wizard. Arcane(Illusion) spell list & powers.
--Warder: Con. magic-using class. Protection/defensive specialist wizard. Arcane(Apotropaic, a.k.a."Abjuration") spell list & powers.
--Mage: Int. magic-using class. General Arcane wizard. Arcane spell list.
--Psychic: Wis. magic-using class. Support supernatural wizard. Psychic(Aether) powers. Disciplines subclasses.
--Druid: Cha. magic-using class. General Nature wizard. Nature spell list.

hmmm. 24 classes and I don't get my devoted Swashbuckler or Witch...though see multiple ways one could make them happen...

I dunno. Still strikes me as too many for a "base" game, maybe.

 

[Vaalingrade]

just because it is possible for some new players to understand how to play the game very quickly it is not a free pass nor good idea to therefore make the learning curve as steep as we possibly can.

It's not 'as steep as we possibly can' it's 'existing'.

And if we were going to actually be concerned about the learning curve, then why do we have neo-Vancian casting still? Talk about steep-- we go from 'X per day you get to do a thing and this is basically all you get' to 'guess what the DM is going to do today and react to that preemptively choose from hundreds of options to counter it, usually instantly.'

Why is there nothing in between? Isn't that what 'steep' actually means when it comes to learning curves? Not 'let's take away everything in some areas and then deep-end the players who venture out of that?

Also, why is the learning curve segregated by power source. Basically we're telling players 'congratulations, you graduated from the warrior character that is the traditional main character in most fantasy and now you get to play spellcasters instead. No need for that sword ever again--you're too smart for that now!'

 

[Neonchameleon]

3e warlock is great model to build simple caster. It had no spells per se. It had eldricht blast ability that progressed like sneak attack with levels and few invocations that were at will "spells". Something similar could be used for basic magic user. Mana blast - basic spell attack, invocation spells - few select control/debuff/utility spells which are at will and thats it.

I must get round to writing my Warlock "Pact Transformation" spells - a collection of half a dozen to a dozen warlock spells all of which require a pact magic slot to cast and work until the spell slot is recovered (which you can choose not to do). The obvious one is

Pact of Power​

1st Level Transmutation​

Casting Time: 1 minute​

Range: Self​

Components: V, S, M (Ten drops of the warlock's blood)​

Duration: Until the spell slot used to cast this is recovered. If you would normally recover the slot you may choose not to do so to keep the Pact Transformation running.​

Special: A Pact Spell can only be cast using a Pact Magic spell slot or a Mystic Arcanum slot; using a Mystic Arcanum slot always counts as a pact slot of fifth level.​

Special: While you have a Pact Transformation active you may not concentrate on any spells not granted by an Invocation or a Subclass. You may not have the same Pact Transformation active twice at the same time.​

​

You are imbued with mystical power that reflects your patron, visible either in your eyes or whenever you make an attack. Whenever you make an attack you do a number of points of extra damage on that attack equal to the level of the Pact Magic slot used.​

It's designed to compete with Hex (which is why there's a slightly awkwardly worded concentration restriction built in; I don't want this stacked with Hex - and I don't want to lock someone out of subclass features entirely). And I want for players to just be able to scratch out their spell slots, gain a few abilities, and be done.

Also:

Pact of Sight​

1st Level Transmutation​

Casting Time: 1 minute​

Range: Self​

Components: V, S, M (The warlock's own eyes, which have a visible supernatural effect for the duration of the spell)​

Duration: Until the spell slot used to cast this is recovered. If you would normally recover the slot you may choose not to do so to keep the Pact Transformation running.​

Special: A Pact Spell can only be cast using a Pact Magic spell slot or a Mystic Arcanum slot; using a Mystic Arcanum slot always counts as a pact slot of fifth level.​

Special: While you have a Pact Transformation active you may not concentrate on any spells not granted by an Invocation or a Subclass. You may not have the same Pact Transformation active twice at the same time.​

​

You are imbued with mystical sight, and your eyes reflect your patron. Unless you have concealed them everyone looking at you knows that your sight is unearthly. The exact augmentations to your sight​

​

Level 1: Darkvision 60' (or extend your darkvision by 30' if you already have it)​

Level 2: Understand the literal meaning of any written language you see​

Level 3: Advantage on search and perception checks to notice hidden or concealed creatures or objects​

Level 4: Permanently see the presence of magic within 30' of you, learning the school of magic. You need line of sight to the object to detect it​

Level 5: Blindsight 30'​

(If you want x-ray vision there's already an Invocation for that).

The point of this is to lock down what you can do so you can ignore the spell slots.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I will say this forever: we vastly underestimate the ability of new players to grok gameplay.

I've watched a ten year old master the dozen or so buttons on a modern console controller in an impossible number of combinations all while juggling a stream of consumable and recharging abilities and honing the situational awareness and reflexes to keep up with a maddeningly ubiquitous 'perfect parry' combat system.

And yet I come on here and get told that same ten your old is too incompetent to operate Barbarian Rage and a feat that asks them to use basic addition.

The buttons give instant feedback and muscle memory. Ask their math teachers how well they remember what they did last week.

Also different people are different. And this is about analysis paralysis or drowning in options. Levels 1 and 2 should be sped through anyway.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't think I have a finite list, but my thoughts are:

Wizards are more generalists. They are dabblers in a lot of pots but lack the depth of any specialist. They get a smattering of different lists, but lack the more specific effects of the others.

And this is a part of why I say that Wizard should be a Sorcerer subclass. The one that opens up a whole lot of spell lists. The mere way schools work gives them specific effects that often exceed sorcerers in their domains. Generalist/Ritualist is just one thing and is a perfectly fine subclass for sorcerer.

 

[Hatmatter]

Will this be the future of Dungeons & Dragons for its next fifty years I wonder: players will continue to be discussing how classes or some other aspect of the game system can be improved or redesigned in the year 2074 and beyond that?

I find the discussion fascinating...but at what point do people simply make their own new role-playing game or homebrew their version of D&D -- for example Neon Chameleon has a bunch of cool ideas for a different version of the game that it sounds like he is running with...I bet it is fun to play at his table.

Nice to see the Do It Yourself ethic remains strong in the role-playing community after five decades.

 

[Maxperson]

Making a themed Wiz/Sorc that's not fire-based is impossible.

I have yet to meet a DM who wouldn't let me choose coldball or lightningball at 5th level, instead of fireball. That's the great thing about elemental spells. You can sub elements for all of them in order to theme spellcasters.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't even actually like psionics. I just don't dislike psion players enough to wish ti disenfranchise them.

And that's a fantastic attitude to have. I can't stand marshals and warlords, but I root for those classes to be made, because lots of folks do like them. It seems petty to me when someone tries to poopoo on a class and argue against it being made simply because they don't like it.