D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[jmartkdr2]

What's wrong with making the fighter the complex class and using the barbarian for the simple one?

For a surprising number of people: it's not called fighter.

It's not enough that the option exists, they need it to have the label they want. Similar to how 4e made rangers (who dont use magic in 4e) the archer class (and dex-warriors in general) and some people hated that. They wanted fighter archers.

 

[Vaalingrade]

For a surprising number of people: it's not called fighter.

It's not enough that the option exists, they need it to have the label they want. Similar to how 4e made rangers (who dont use magic in 4e) the archer class (and dex-warriors in general) and some people hated that. They wanted fighter archers.

Fighter

Actual Fighter

 

[Minigiant]

For a surprising number of people: it's not called fighter.

It's not enough that the option exists, they need it to have the label they want. Similar to how 4e made rangers (who dont use magic in 4e) the archer class (and dex-warriors in general) and some people hated that. They wanted fighter archers.

That's mainly why I say the barbarian being the simple warrior might work.

There's not much desire for a complex barbarian. And for most who do want it would be satisfied by a conversion of the 4e Warden class.

HOWEVER

There is a large vocal group who want the fighter to be the simple warrior class.
Hence way the opposition to a "Full maneuver " Warblade or Weaponmaster class is so weird.
It reeks of "jock hating nerds" if they also dislike simple casters.

 

[pemerton]

What's wrong with making the fighter the complex class and using the barbarian for the simple one?

There is something a bit incongruous about a "Hulk smash!" class being more mechanically intricate, and hence more intellectually demanding to play, than a skilled warrior class.

 

[Aldarc]

Building on an earlier post, I would potentially consider a setup like this for the full-casters:

• Arcanist (arcane/order): astral, mana, time, gravity, sigils, etc.
• Warlock (shadow): necromancy, shadow, void, dark arts, blood, etc.
• Mystic (mental): mind magic, illusions, enchantment, psionics, etc.
• Druid (nature): animals, plants, weather, land, etc.
• Elementalist (primal/chaos): air, earth, fire, water, etc.
• Cleric (divine): holy, healing, buffing, abjuration, etc.

I would also consider just flat-out giving the players the ability to choose their primary ability casting score for the class, possibly from a list of two out of the three choies: e.g., Cleric (Wisdom or Charisma), Mystic (Intelligence or Wisdom), Warlock (Intelligence or Charisma), etc. However, once you pick it, the casting attribute stays the same for that class.

 

[CreamCloud0]

my own thoughts on dividing up the spellcasters/spellcasting
wizard: utility, control and offensive buffing magic
bard: jack of all trades,
cleric: healing and defensive support magic, radiant damage specialised
druid: nature, plant and animal magic, some healing, poison, thunder, lightning and cold damage specialised
psion: telepathy, telekinesis and energy magic, psychic, force and lightning damage specialised
warlock: debuffing, control and offensive magic, fire, acid, necrotic and psychic damage specialised
sorcerer: offensive and offensive buffing magic, specialised in most damage types excepting radiant, necrotic and psychic.

 

[Aldarc]

my own thoughts on dividing up the spellcasters/spellcasting
wizard: utility, control and offensive buffing magic
bard: jack of all trades,
cleric: healing and defensive support magic, radiant damage specialised
druid: nature, plant and animal magic, some healing, poison, thunder, lightning and cold damage specialised
psion: telepathy, telekinesis and energy magic, psychic, force and lightning damage specialised
warlock: debuffing, control and offensive magic, fire, acid, necrotic and psychic damage specialised
sorcerer: offensive and offensive buffing magic, specialised in most damage types excepting radiant, necrotic and psychic.

The bard didn't make my list of full-casters, because I would likely have made it a half-caster, albeit one that can dabble in all the spell lists, plus the usual skills and martial combat. That is the price of its versatility.

Also, I would have moved the Druid's shapeshifting to the Warden, the hypothetical Nature Half-Caster. So if you just wanna be the character that shapeshifts into powerful forms like the Moon Druid, then you would pick the Warden. The Warden would also get the casting side of the Ranger.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The bard didn't make my list of full-casters, because I would likely have made it a half-caster, albeit one that can dabble in all the spell lists, plus the usual skills and martial combat. That is the price of its versatility.

Also, I would have moved the Druid's shapeshifting to the Warden, the hypothetical Nature Half-Caster. So if you just wanna be the character that shapeshifts into powerful forms like the Moon Druid, then you would pick the Warden. The Warden would also get the casting side of the Ranger.

i'm mostly just using the names for consistency and concept relatability, in this circumstance the bard would be treated as more of the purely magical Jack while loosing some of it's all round Jack traits, though as you say it could be removed as a fullcaster and the Jack traits might be put into a wizard subclass.

oh yeah this druid would not have wildshape, that'd be sectioned off into it's own dedicated noncaster class,

 

[Minigiant]

Building on an earlier post, I would potentially consider a setup like this for the full-casters:

• Arcanist (arcane/order): astral, mana, time, gravity, sigils, etc.
• Warlock (shadow): necromancy, shadow, void, dark arts, blood, etc.
• Mystic (mental): mind magic, illusions, enchantment, psionics, etc.
• Druid (nature): animals, plants, weather, land, etc.
• Elementalist (primal/chaos): air, earth, fire, water, etc.
• Cleric (divine): holy, healing, buffing, abjuration, etc.

I would also consider just flat-out giving the players the ability to choose their primary ability casting score for the class, possibly from a list of two out of the three choies: e.g., Cleric (Wisdom or Charisma), Mystic (Intelligence or Wisdom), Warlock (Intelligence or Charisma), etc. However, once you pick it, the casting attribute stays the same for that class.

I'd go

Core
Cleric- Divine
Druid- Primal
Wizard- Arcane
Warlock- Eldritch

Supplement
Psion- Psionic
Elementalist- Elemental
Shaman- Spirit
Shadowcaster- Shadow
Astrologer- Astral

Bard and Sorcerer would be able to pick their spell list

 

[Neonchameleon]

i'm mostly just using the names for consistency and concept relatability, in this circumstance the bard would be treated as more of the purely magical Jack while loosing some of it's all round Jack traits, though as you say it could be removed as a fullcaster and the Jack traits might be put into a wizard subclass.

oh yeah this druid would not have wildshape, that'd be sectioned off into it's own dedicated noncaster class,

Honestly one of the things that bugs me about D&D is how spellcasting feels to me more-generic-than-generic. 4e spellcasting is generic - it has everything in common which means that with just a little imagination you can put whatever spin on it you want.

D&D casting isn't generic outside 4e. It's rigid. Spells all are discrete things, defined differently from anything else and (with the honourable exception of the warlock and arguably the Aberrant Mind) everyone casts spells in the same way with the same levels out of the same slots, with the only differences being which spell list you use and whether you are a full caster, half-caster or just a subclass caster. And because spells are defined this way it means that all spellcasting has common mechanisms.

I find the beancounting slots to be perfect for the wizard and a few derived classes - but am very glad for the existence of the warlock. And would like to see more classes with different casting. I'd like bards to have their own casting methods that feel more ... bardic. Possibly more musical. I can accept clerics being formalist casters - but would like to see druids at the very least moved to warlock style if not their own (which would give them more of a power budget for Wild Shape, Wildfire Spirits, Spore clouds, or whatever); I think low level slow growing things and the occasional natural disaster is perfect for them.