D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Minigiant]

Basically the fewer full spell casters you have, the fewer types spells your game can support.

It's why the conjure spells are being nerfed. Caster turns were too long and it could be often.
Why combining Paladin and Cleric spells into one Divine list didn't work. Clerics with smites.
Druids with ranger buffs. Nope.

You could have
2 casters
4 casters
6 casters
10 casters

But there are story and gameplay ramifications

 

[Aldarc]

Every edition of D&D states that summoning is OP if you have any other strengths.

You have to silo it out to it's own class and nerf everything else that class can do to the ground

Have you considered that the reason that is the case is because every edition of D&D makes summoning OP? It's not like summoning must be OP. The same people who designed the game are also the same people who designed summoning, but that is not the only form that summoning could take in this game.

That's why I don't have a necromancy class.

No the elementals class does not have spirits They can't contract elemental spirits.

No the druid class can't summon spirits They can't summon Elemental spirits.

Yeah, I don't agree here at all. I'm glad that setup works for you, but that would not work for me at all.

 

[Minigiant]

Have you considered that the reason that is the case is because every edition of D&D makes summoning OP? It's not like summoning must be OP. The same people who designed the game are also the same people who designed summoning, but that is not the only form that summoning could take in this game.

I have.
It's not.

The issue is Action Economy.

The summon gives you another action. That is the OP part.

The solutions are

1. Make the summons action require using your action.
2. Make the summon's action weak
3. Make the summmoner's action weak

Fans hate 1&2. They tolerate 3.

However you cannot nerf the summoner's actions unless you either remove their ability to cast spells while their summon are out or you limit the spells in their repertoire.

 

[Aldarc]

I have.
It's not.

The issue is Action Economy.

The summon gives you another action. That is the OP part.

The solutions are

1. Make the summons action require using your action.
2. Make the summon's action weak
3. Make the summmoner's action weak

Fans hate 1&2. They tolerate 3.

However you cannot nerf the summoner's actions unless you either remove their ability to cast spells while their summon are out or you limit the spells in their repertoire.

I know you like to make lists and categories where you present things in an authoritative manner, but I sometimes feel that you tend to exclude options. For example, one option that you do not consider here is (Option 4) that summons and their action economy are incorporated into spells. Now that I have pointed out that there is at least one solution that you don't consider, do you not believe that there couldn't be more?

 

[Minigiant]

I know you like to make lists and categories where you present things in an authoritative manner, but I sometimes feel that you tend to exclude options. For example, one option that you do not consider here is (Option 4) that summons and their action economy are incorporated into spells. Now that I have pointed out that there is at least one solution that you don't consider, do you not believe that there couldn't be more?

What does 4 mean?

Johnny is playing a spellcaster.
Johnny has the spellcaster summons a demon.
How many actions does Johnny have on Johnny's turn?

 

[Aldarc]

What does 4 mean?

It means that you can cast a spell for a temporary summon with an effect. A spellcaster uses their action economy to cast a spell that "summons" but that acts as a spell effect.


For example, you summon skeletal hands from the ground for X rounds which make for tough terrain while also dealing necrotic damage OR you summon a one-round-and-done ethereal phantasm that passes through all creatures in a straight line, which imparts a negative status effect.

It gives you the feeling that you are summoning something without an entire stat block or interfering with the action economy.

This is one option. It is an option that you did not consider. And to point, your list for summons is not definitive. Other options exist than what you believe.

Johnny is playing a spellcaster.
Johnny has the spellcaster summons a demon.
How many actions does Johnny have on Johnny's turn?

Johnny is playing a druid. Johnny has the druid summon a storm to call lightning. How many actions does Johnny have on Johnny's turn?

Call Lightning is effectively a summon. It doesn't have HP, but not all summons need or should have them. The druid uses their action on their turn to either have it do a thing or they don't and the summon persists.

There is also summoning in Fabula Ultima, which I may also get into later.

 

[Minigiant]

It means that you can cast a spell for a temporary summon with an effect. A spellcaster uses their action economy to cast a spell that "summons" but that acts as a spell effect.


For example, you summon skeletal hands from the ground for X rounds which make for tough terrain while also dealing necrotic damage OR you summon a one-round-and-done ethereal phantasm that passes through all creatures in a straight line, which imparts a negative status effect.

It gives you the feeling that you are summoning something without an entire stat block or interfering with the action economy.

This is one option. It is an option that you did not consider. And to point, your list for summons is not definitive. Other options exist than what you believe.

So you mean the summon doesn't get any actions and is uncontrollable.

Yeah. Sure but many players want a summon they can control.

That's the trope.

That's a conjuration but not really what D&D and Fantasy call a "Summon".

 

[steeldragons]

The Summoner more or less exists to balance having tons of summons or one big summons.

People want that. It's a tripe.

It is, indeed ,tripe. Why people would want it is beyond me. ;P

 

[TwoSix]

It is, indeed ,tripe. Why people would want it is beyond me. ;P

Final Fantasy? Pokemon?

Pet classes and minion-mancer classes have been popular for a long time.

 

[Aldarc]

Final Fantasy? Pokemon?

Pet classes and minion-mancer classes have been popular for a long time.

In Pokemon, the summoner has no actions. They just stand back and declare actions for their summon.

In video games, programming and AI does a lot of the heavy lifting for the action economy, but the AI of minions (and the lag they cause) is often a sore spot for a lot of games and players of those games.