D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Aldarc]

My argument is simply that a class designed with only abilities similar to Call Lightning would be insufficient, to my mind, to fulfill the Summoner trope, even if those abilities were skinned as summoning creatures.

Just like I would say that the Arcanist class in FU is insufficient to fill the trope space; fortunately, Wayfarer and Faithful Companion fill that gap for summoner characters.

My argument has never been using abilities entirely similar to Call Lightning. That was just an example regarding "Johnny." I can't even believe that I'm having to remind you of that fact!

 

[Baron Opal II]

It means that you can cast a spell for a temporary summon with an effect. A spellcaster uses their action economy to cast a spell that "summons" but that acts as a spell effect.

For me, it's option 1, where the summoner calls a creature and while it is active the magician is concentrating. The caster trades their actions for a different set of actions and capabilities- the creature's.

There are circumstances where the magician can, for example, summon a flying creatures that then carries the magician around. But that's functionally identical to simply casting a fly spell. You could theoretically chase off the critter rather than dispel the fly.

Is that what you are referring to?

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think the problem with Summoner is how the game is made it does not fit well with how we play and build dnd, hence the idea of a class as it needs far to much to work properly.

 

[TwoSix]

My argument has never been using abilities entirely similar to Call Lightning. That was just an example regarding "Johnny." I can't even believe that I'm having to remind you of that fact!

I am in no way trying to contradict you.

My only goal here is to clarify what I view as the necessary scope of mechanical differentiation to fulfill the summoner trope.

 

[Aldarc]

I am in no way trying to contradict you.

My only goal here is to clarify what I view as the necessary scope of mechanical differentiation to fulfill the summoner trope.

Okay, but I think that one issue with a Summoner class is that what it summons can potentially tread on the toes of other classes that also may include summons. Again, how would one distinguish a Summoner class from a Necromancer/Warlock (whatever we call a dark mage), which may have summons but not necessarily as they are optional (e.g., Guild Wars, Diablo, etc.)?

 

[TwoSix]

Okay, but I think that one issue with a Summoner class is that what it summons can potentially tread on the toes of other classes that also may include summons. Again, how would one distinguish a Summoner class from a Necromancer/Warlock (whatever we call a dark mage), which may have summons but not necessarily as they are optional (e.g., Guild Wars, Diablo, etc.)?

Tough to say.

Take Fire Elementals, as a simple example. If you divide up the spell pie such that there is a Summoner class and an Elemental class, who can summon a fire elemental? One or the other? Both? Maybe require a feat, or some multiclassing/hybrid classing?

There's not really a right answer, to me. I'm fine with a system that makes Summoner a dedicated class, or that makes it a mechanical role divided among various sources/schools, or that limits Summons to rituals and controlled with narrative hooks.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Okay, but I think that one issue with a Summoner class is that what it summons can potentially tread on the toes of other classes that also may include summons. Again, how would one distinguish a Summoner class from a Necromancer/Warlock (whatever we call a dark mage), which may have summons but not necessarily as they are optional (e.g., Guild Wars, Diablo, etc.)?

One way is breadth and level of control.

The Guild of Summoners teaches a plethora of common and expected otherworldly creatures- elementals, other-dimensional humanoids, &c. Concentration is required for control of any summoning.

Disciples of the Pallid Emperor learn some summoning techniques, but it is mostly for skeletons, wights, and wraiths from the battlegrounds of history. The weaker ones don't require concentration. They could be run as hazards to make it simpler for game flow.

Those that make a pact with The Harvester of Eyes have a very limited number of creatures to summon; only those that are aspects of that entity or other specifically subordinate entities can be summoned. They might require full concentration but grant abilities that are otherwise unavailable. Perhaps difficult to block scrying in this case.

The guild of summoners could conceivably call to any of the entities that the others have access to, but they don't know the proper ritual and it might take more power. So, a sixth level spell instead of a fourth.

 

[Clint_L]

I think the problem with Summoner is how the game is made it does not fit well with how we play and build dnd, hence the idea of a class as it needs far to much to work properly.

Yeah, I think a summoner class would be a nightmare with 5e's mechanics. I mean, summoning spells already kind of are a nightmare, which is why they are getting massively streamlined in the 2024 update.

This is not a criticism of a summoning class per se, just of a summoning class in D&D. I don't want a class that will likely make combat take even longer.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Okay, but I think that one issue with a Summoner class is that what it summons can potentially tread on the toes of other classes that also may include summons. Again, how would one distinguish a Summoner class from a Necromancer/Warlock (whatever we call a dark mage), which may have summons but not necessarily as they are optional (e.g., Guild Wars, Diablo, etc.)?

my distinction would be that any non-summoner 'summoner subclasses' will have additional tools to draw upon, their summon might be a strong focal point of their abilities but a drakewarden isn't just their drake, the balance of power is more equal between character and summon, a summoner class on the other hand has the division of power more housed in the summons than the character, being more a facilitator of their summons, but in both of these circumstances the summons are boosted in strength in some way in comparison to a wizard who simply happens to know summon dead/fey/elemental, it is merely one tool amongst many in their arsenal

 

[Aldarc]

I don't really think that a Summoner class is needed to fulfill the archetype for those who want it, as I think that it could be part of pre-existing classes. However, as it seems that I'm outnumbered on this matter and have already had my argument misconstrued multiple times, I think that I'll tap out of this discusssion before I become even more soured by further discussion. I doubt that anyone will be convinced otherwise of alternate positions.