D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[SkidAce]

Tough to say.

Take Fire Elementals, as a simple example. If you divide up the spell pie such that there is a Summoner class and an Elemental class, who can summon a fire elemental? One or the other? Both? Maybe require a feat, or some multiclassing/hybrid classing?

There's not really a right answer, to me. I'm fine with a system that makes Summoner a dedicated class, or that makes it a mechanical role divided among various sources/schools, or that limits Summons to rituals and controlled with narrative hooks.

I'd go with both.

In my ideal version of summoning, it would be a school of spells, i.e. Transmutation, Abjuration, Summoning.

BUT! Balancing that concept (anyone could learn to summon, some specialize) is mad cra-za-zy difficult.

 

[SkidAce]

One way is breadth and level of control.

The Guild of Summoners teaches a plethora of common and expected otherworldly creatures- elementals, other-dimensional humanoids, &c. Concentration is required for control of any summoning.

Disciples of the Pallid Emperor learn some summoning techniques, but it is mostly for skeletons, wights, and wraiths from the battlegrounds of history. The weaker ones don't require concentration. They could be run as hazards to make it simpler for game flow.

Those that make a pact with The Harvester of Eyes have a very limited number of creatures to summon; only those that are aspects of that entity or other specifically subordinate entities can be summoned. They might require full concentration but grant abilities that are otherwise unavailable. Perhaps difficult to block scrying in this case.

The guild of summoners could conceivably call to any of the entities that the others have access to, but they don't know the proper ritual and it might take more power. So, a sixth level spell instead of a fourth.

Well put.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd go with both.

In my ideal version of summoning, it would be a school of spells, i.e. Transmutation, Abjuration, Summoning.

BUT! Balancing that concept (anyone could learn to summon, some specialize) is mad cra-za-zy difficult.

Makes sense.

I think what makes it tough is that summoning is so broad, thematically, that you could build an entire magic system out of it. What narrative and mechanical controls you could choose to put on it is a very wide space.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I don't really think that a Summoner class is needed to fulfill the archetype for those who want it, as I think that it could be part of pre-existing classes. However, as it seems that I'm outnumbered on this matter and have already had my argument misconstrued multiple times, I think that I'll tap out of this discusssion before I become even more soured by further discussion. I doubt that anyone will be convinced otherwise of alternate positions.

The compromise position is "most if not all full-casters get a summoner subclass" - but I'm not sure that's any easier to manager than a summoner subclass to silo the mechanics of managing a summoned creature that's strong enough to be your 'main thing.'

 

[TwoSix]

Thinking about it a little more, you could probably divide the casters into types of magic based on what types of creature they summon or control.

Necromancers - Undead
Warlocks - Demons and Devils
Clerics - Angels
Druids - Beasts
Sorcerers - Elementals
Psychics - Mind controlled Thralls
Artificers - Golems

 

[steeldragons]

Mages - Arcane Magic Full Caster. Limitless Cantrips. Limitless Rituals. Leveled Spell Progression to top tier of 9. Arcane Magic Spell list.
Swordmage (better name needed) - Arcane Magic Half-caster. Limitless Cantrips. Limited Rituals known/progression. Leveled Spell Progression, slower than the Mage, to top tier of 5. Swordmage spell list.

Clerics - Divine Magic Full Caster. Channel magic effects at level 1. No Cantrips. Limitless Rituals at level 1. Level Spell Progression, beginning at 3rd level, to top tier of 9. Divine Magic Spell list.
Paladin - Divine Magic Half-caster. Channels magic effects ar level 1. No Cantrips. Limited Rituals known/progression. Level Spell Progression, slower than the Cleric, to top tier of 5. Paladin spell list.

Druid - Nature Magic Full Caster. Channels magic effects at level 1. Limited Cantrips known. Limitless Rituals. Leveled Spell Progression, beginning at 3rd level, to top tier of 9. Nature Magic spell list.
Bard - Nature Magic Half-caster. Channels magic effects at level 1. Limited Cantrips known (limitless use). Limited Rituals known/progression. Leveled Spell Progression, beginning at level 3, to top tier of 5. Bardic Magic spell list.

Witch - Occult Power (multi-source) Full Caster. Limitless Cantrips. Limitless rituals. Level Spell Progression to top tier of 9. Access to Multiple Spell Lists and Occult Powers ("Witch's Crafts") list.
Warlock - Occult Power (multi-source) Half-caster/Arcane Channeler. Limited Cantrips known (limitless use). Channel magic effects at level 1. Limited Rituals known/progression. Level Spell Progression to top tier of 5 and Occult Powers ("Invocations") list.

Psychic - Psychic Power Full "caster"/Psychic "Channeler." Limited "Cantrips" known (limitless use). Limitless Base Power use. Limited Rituals known/progression. Level Powers Progression, beginning at level 3, to top tier of 9. Discipline Powers list.
Psy-Warrior (better name needed)- Psychic Power Half-"caster." Limtied "Cantrips" known (limitless use). Limited Rituals known/progression. Level powers Progression beginning at level 1, to top tier of 5. Discipline Powers list.

Seems like enough magicky using classes. Ten? Yeah, that's enough.

NOW, who wants to work on ten "martial/mundane/non-magic" classes, to balance out the game options for the players who don't want "magic" characters, with their own separate special "things" and progressions, and archetypes differentiated with story and individual mechanics/"features/bonus: stuff" lists? ;P

So... no takers, huh? <huff> Fine.

10 no-magic classes of combat and skill... ummmmm....

General/Base Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Fighter.
--Rogue/Skill: Thief.

Wilderness Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Barbarian.
--Rogue/Skill: Ranger.

Maritime Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Corsair (Fighter-Mariner-Treasure Hunter, Sinbad meets Odysseus ).
--Rogue/Skill: Swashbuckler (seafaring Fighter + Acrobat + flare/panache) .

Courtly Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Cavalier/Knight.
--Rogue/Skill: Courtier (a mastermind with a touch of Assassin).

Unarmed Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Martial Artist/Monk.
--Rogue/Skill: Acrobat (maneuverability/entertainer/escape artist/thrown weapons).

SO, ye ultimate class list...not counting myriad subclass options would look like:

1. Acrobat
2. Adept [, Martial] (nee "Monk")
3. Barbarian
4. Bard
5. Cavalier
6. Cleric
7. Corsair
8. Courtier
9. Druid
10. Fighter
11. Mage (nee "Wizard")
12. Paladin
13. Psychic (nee "Psion")
14. Psilos (nee "Psychic Warrior")
15. Ranger
16. Swashbuckler
17. Swordmage
18. Thief (nee "Rogue")
19. Warlock
20. Witch

Glad we could clear this all up.

 

[TwoSix]

So... no takers, huh? <huff> Fine.

10 no-magic classes of combat and skill... ummmmm....

General/Base Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Fighter.
--Rogue/Skill: Thief.

Wilderness Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Barbarian.
--Rogue/Skill: Ranger.

Maritime Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Corsair (Fighter-Mariner-Treasure Hunter, Sinbad meets Odysseus ).
--Rogue/Skill: Swashbuckler (seafaring Fighter + Acrobat + flare/panache) .

Courtly Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Cavalier/Knight.
--Rogue/Skill: Courtier (a mastermind with a touch of Assassin).

Unarmed Expert:
--Warrior/Combat: Martial Artist/Monk.
--Rogue/Skill: Acrobat (maneuverability/entertainer/escape artist/thrown weapons).

SO, ye ultimate class list...not counting myriad subclass options would look like:

1. Acrobat
2. Adept [, Martial] (nee "Monk")
3. Barbarian
4. Bard
5. Cavalier
6. Cleric
7. Corsair
8. Courtier
9. Druid
10. Fighter
11. Mage (nee "Wizard")
12. Paladin
13. Psychic (nee "Psion")
14. Psilos (nee "Psychic Warrior")
15. Ranger
16. Swashbuckler
17. Swordmage
18. Thief (nee "Rogue")
19. Warlock
20. Witch

Glad we could clear this all up.

Obviously no class list is perfect, but this would be a fantastic list for an expanded OSR style game.

 

[cbwjm]

I think something like the summoners from PF could work well adapted to 5e. I'd have to read the class again as their might be ways to get more than one summon, but you essentially summon up a singular entity that you improve as you level. It could be a genie, a dragon, a fiend, etc. In this way it acts more like Johnny Thunder from DC comics where he can summon up a genie to help him out.

 

[Mister Infinite]

All of the classes.

Diversity is goooood.

Seriously. Your 65. Forced into retirement. Wtf are you going do? Sit in the rocking chair?

I say virtual reality systems plus EVERYTHING DnD

 

[Daztur]

My ideal set-up would be that each class gets One Unique Thing that is important enough to establish their class identity and then their sub-classes modify how that One Unique Thing works. If their One Unique Things is cool enough then a slew of other class features shouldn't be necessary, if their One Unique Thing isn't cool enough then back to the drawing board with the class. For example:

Barbarian: rage.

Rogues: cunning action (but VERY buffed, I always liked skill money rogues more than assassin rogues)

Wizard: pure Vancian magic.

Sorcerer: spontaneous magic.

Cleric: magic based on 2e-style Spheres.

Druid: wildshape.

Bard: inspiration/song.

etc. etc.