Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
A fighters usual magic items substantially affect the things that fighters do best or fill gaps that then make them very effective. Magical weapon, magic armour, magic shield?

A wizards magic items usually allow them to do more of what they already do. Staves and wands. The Robes of the Archmage are probably the best increasing attack roll (most useful for cantrips when so many spells are save based) and spell DC by 2. This is the only item that adds to a wizards DC to my knowledge.

The magic items that a fighter gets will often protect against the effects of spells.

The magic items that a wizard gets can do little to protect against physical attacks. Even the robe of Archmagi will do little to blunt a high level fighters attacks.

Is this fair or am I totally out of whack?

that’s a fine point but one I’m not sure is true. Wizards don’t get many things that directly boost their spells Like fighters do their attacks but some items grant very powerful effects and wizards can freely take those instead.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
They absolutely do exist...until level 10, when having them keep up with reality warpers and superheroes whilst remaining grounded in a natural universe that obeys the laws of physics snaps my personal reality suspenders to a painful degree.

the you aren’t designing d&d.
 

TheSword

Legend
that’s a fine point but one I’m not sure is true. Wizards don’t get many things that directly boost their spells Like fighters do their attacks but some items grant very powerful effects and wizards can freely take those instead.
Yes that is true, but those effects generally aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells. They just give more of the same, and don’t off the wizard enough protection to physical attacks.

Thats why it’s not possible to take magic items out of the discussion for comparison purposes because they benefit from them differently.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yes that is true, but those effects generally aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells. It just gives more of the same, and don’t make the wizard immune to physical attacks.

Thats why it’s not possible to take magic items out of the discussion for comparison purposes because they benefit from them differently.

Fair point but I’m not so sure.
Fighter takes a strong magic sword. Vs. wizard takes a flying carpet.

doesn’t that tend to put the wizard even further ahead?

that is to say the ability to do more single target damage and be hit less are the least impressive effects imaginable.
 

TheSword

Legend
Fair point but I’m not so sure.
Fighter takes a strong magic sword. Vs. wizard takes a flying carpet.

doesn’t that tend to put the wizard even further ahead?

that is to say the ability to do more single target damage and be hit less are the least impressive effects imaginable.
Yes, it is a fair point. Flying is extremely powerful.

I do think there are non-magical counters to that though. Terrain or having a flying mount for instance (the latter is of course is circumstantial). I also think with so much adventuring happening ‘indoors’ it is not as useful as one would think.

Even the simple longbow in the hands of a high level fighter would give a flying wizard pause.

Closing distance will always be one of the objectives of a h2h fighter but magic too has become closer. 60 ft or 30 ft seems to be the standard.
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The you? Do you mean, "Good thing I'm not" designing D&D? I think we're all designing this version of D&D.

no. I mean removing the mundane fighter from leveling up to 20th as all others Will make the game not d&d for too many.

adding alternate prestige classes is cool though.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
For the most part

The Fighter want magic items that reduce or remove the limitations of the physical body when dealing with the supernatural: magic weapons, magic armor, magic mounts and transportation

The Wizard wants magic items thatreplace spells in order to save space on what they have to prepare.

The Rogue wants magic items that add or increase the application of their skills: vision, speed, instant tools

The Cleric wants a mix of all of the above but is least picky. They ironically are the most broken when they get what items they want.

This is why there should be a fighter archetype, prestige class, or epic destiny that add 2-3 atttunements to the character as well as allows the fighter to bond with special mounts faster. This way the magic sword, magic armor, and pegasus/carpet doesn't count against the fighter's attunements.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
no. I mean removing the mundane fighter from leveling up to 20th as all others Will make the game not d&d for too many.

adding alternate prestige classes is cool though.

Personally, having the fighter stop at level 10 feels like a cop-out.

I feels like a group of people wanting a preference but not wanting the consequences of that preferences or not wanting to deal with the question at all.
Much like a woman wanting to marry a handsome rich person but not wanting to deal with high society's rules and the schemes of other suitors.

But I really can't blame anyone in the community. The onus of choosing what a high level fighter is was never placed on anyone but the designers.

A person can easily dodge the question of superhuman, magic item, magic spells, divine boon, or deadly strikes. Only designers and DMs of high level play need to answer the question. So very few are forced to make a decision and deal with the consequences.

And this is why classes like the fighter, ranger, monk, sorcerer and others have or had vision problems.
 

Good beholder tactics but I don’t really see how it makes the fighter irrelevant. It’s a 120 ft cone so not quite as easy to dodge in and out of. The beholder shuts its eye and then sends as many eye rays as it likes. It’s a fun monster but not ridiculous for either to fight because as you say the beholders strongest anti magic nerfs it’s own threat. Now throw a few allied ogres into the same fight and now you really want to have a fighter standing between them and the wizard.

I guess the principal is there though. antimagic, counterspell, spell resistance, energy resistances, spell turning etc all make things really difficult for a magic user but barely scratch a fighters abilities.
Isn't it telling then, that even with things made really difficult for wizards and the fighter's abilities barely scratched, the caster still generally comes out ahead?

I personally don’t believe fighters are better. But I don’t think they’re worse either. Just different. You’re comparing oranges and apples. Each excels in their own area.
Like the way Fighters excel in combat, and wizards excel in exploration, and combat?

The days of casters having a spell for every occasion are long gone with limited spells known per day. This isn’t 5e where a caster has every utility spell tucked away in a wand. Neither do the changes to spell duration and number of subjects allow this.

Combat and exploration in 5e is dominated by role playing and skills. The casters make little dent in this, their spells are icing. As has been said earlier, they are convenient but hardly necessary.
Combat in 5e is dominated by attacks and spells. Exploration is dominated by spells, and if they aren't applicable then both the fighter and the wizard are down to skills.

Yes that is true, but those effects generally aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells. They just give more of the same, and don’t off the wizard enough protection to physical attacks.
Of course those effects aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells! Spells are really good.
Every Lightning bolt that a wand grants a wizard daily is an extra clairvoyance, or hypnotic pattern, or fly spell that can be used to solve a combat or exploration problem before anyone else even gets to start reaching for their ability check dice.

It is very telling that most of the items that people regard as necessary for the fighter to be viable at high levels are just replicating the effects of spells a wizard has had access to for multiple levels already.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There is no issue with this. In my experience wizards items generally let them do more of the same, rather than be much better at what they do. Unlike a fighters items that objective make them better at things they do all the time, like hit things and deflect attacks.

... Yes? I mean, you literally just gave the fighter items to boost AC and their to-hit bonus.

I could give the wizard at-will telekinesis, defense against arrows, the ability to just automatically deal damage, more options to simply dominate the fighters mind, regeneration. Or, I can just do what you did, and increase the Dragon's AC.

Is there a specific effect that will absolutely shut down the fighter in a duel? Probably not. Most items have saves of DC 15, but this fighter hasn't seemed to invest in wisdom, so I'm sure I'd get him with something.

As I said earlier and made clear in my post GWM was an alternative to the sword and board fighter. Either take the damage and whittle the dragon down fairly quickly with sword and board, or Great weapon it and break concentration. Both are possible.

Great Weapon is a poor choice though, as I showed.

And, even if the fighter turtles up and uses sword and board, you have to remember all of the hp of the dragon he is cutting through? None of it is the wizard's health. It is all temporary hp.

All this is looking at the wrong question though. 20th level fighters are not dueling 20th level wizards in isolation. They are both approaching the adventuring day at the same time, and the fighter will consistently out-fight the wizard in the foes they face across the day. D&D isn’t about single spells changing the adventure, if it is then the adventure writing is sloppy. It’s generally about a series of encounters.


Really? We literally have a discussion about needing to go to a different plane of existence. That cannot happen without magic.

At high levels:
How did you learn where to go? Usually magic
So, how does the party get to the encounters? Usually Magic
What happens during combat? The wizard is using magic to control the battlefield, buff the fighter, debuff the enemies or just kill them.
What happens out of combat? The wizard is using magic to solve puzzles, reach places, find things, and bypass challenges.
What happens in the climatic fight? The wizard shuts down the encounter with a powerful spell.


Sure, maybe the fighter... I don't know, did a strength check that was really clutch? Knew a person to talk to? But casters define the game at high levels. Heck, even at low-levels. Murder mystery games are hard to run. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Can't just put the McGuffin in a place that is high up. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Need to know what someone is thinking? Casters can do that. Need to find a missing person? Casters can do that. Someone is dead and their body disintegrated? Casters can fix that.

The only thing in the entire game that a caster cannot do, is deal with anti-magic. Literally, you have to remove magic for them to not potentially, at some level, have an answer to what you have just done.

Why is the Tarrasque such a joke? Because it is essentially a high-level fighter. All it can do is make physical attacks and run. That's it, so it can be taken out by a mid-level party.
 

TheSword

Legend
... Yes? I mean, you literally just gave the fighter items to boost AC and their to-hit bonus.

I could give the wizard at-will telekinesis, defense against arrows, the ability to just automatically deal damage, more options to simply dominate the fighters mind, regeneration. Or, I can just do what you did, and increase the Dragon's AC.

Is there a specific effect that will absolutely shut down the fighter in a duel? Probably not. Most items have saves of DC 15, but this fighter hasn't seemed to invest in wisdom, so I'm sure I'd get him with something.



Great Weapon is a poor choice though, as I showed.

And, even if the fighter turtles up and uses sword and board, you have to remember all of the hp of the dragon he is cutting through? None of it is the wizard's health. It is all temporary hp.




Really? We literally have a discussion about needing to go to a different plane of existence. That cannot happen without magic.

At high levels:
How did you learn where to go? Usually magic
So, how does the party get to the encounters? Usually Magic
What happens during combat? The wizard is using magic to control the battlefield, buff the fighter, debuff the enemies or just kill them.
What happens out of combat? The wizard is using magic to solve puzzles, reach places, find things, and bypass challenges.
What happens in the climatic fight? The wizard shuts down the encounter with a powerful spell.


Sure, maybe the fighter... I don't know, did a strength check that was really clutch? Knew a person to talk to? But casters define the game at high levels. Heck, even at low-levels. Murder mystery games are hard to run. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Can't just put the McGuffin in a place that is high up. Not because of fighters, but because of casters. Need to know what someone is thinking? Casters can do that. Need to find a missing person? Casters can do that. Someone is dead and their body disintegrated? Casters can fix that.

The only thing in the entire game that a caster cannot do, is deal with anti-magic. Literally, you have to remove magic for them to not potentially, at some level, have an answer to what you have just done.

Why is the Tarrasque such a joke? Because it is essentially a high-level fighter. All it can do is make physical attacks and run. That's it, so it can be taken out by a mid-level party.
Maybe in your games, not in ours. I suspect you have a DM who is obsessed with such gimmicks.

Fighters contribute extensively and are successful at the things that make D&D fun. This argument is dominated by people who want to make fighters like wizards, ignoring the fact that people play fighters because they Don’t want to be wizards.

Fighter classes continue to be extremely popular in our games. I’ll leave you to yours.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Really? We literally have a discussion about needing to go to a different plane of existence. That cannot happen without magic.

At high levels:
How did you learn where to go? Usually magic
So, how does the party get to the encounters? Usually Magic
What happens during combat? The wizard is using magic to control the battlefield, buff the fighter, debuff the enemies or just kill them.
What happens out of combat? The wizard is using magic to solve puzzles, reach places, find things, and bypass challenges.
What happens in the climatic fight? The wizard shuts down the encounter with a powerful spell.

Again I think this issue in not magic itself warps everthing and more that the community won't sit down and discuss high level D&D.

So magic spells and crazy monsters become the only thing that exist there.

Again few have the onus to describe what a high level fighter, rogue, ranger, bard, or monk looks like. So huge holes are in high level play, the same ideas are ported over, and only magic spells exist as solutions.
 

TheSword

Legend
Again I think this issue in not magic itself warps everthing and more that the community won't sit down and discuss high level D&D.

So magic spells and crazy monsters become the only thing that exist there.

Again few have the onus to describe what a high level fighter, rogue, ranger, bard, or monk looks like. So huge holes are in high level play, the same ideas are ported over, and only magic spells exist as solutions.
I’m pretty comfortable with John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf holding that territory.
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
I think answering this question effectively requires defining what high level D&D is supposed to look like, something I don't think has ever been done effectively. Each group is left to kind of define it for themselves, but the one thing that's consistant is that none of it's mundane. Whether that's reality warping spells, planar travel, or even the enemies the party faces, it's different. Characters affect the world, or even several worlds, through their actions.

I suggest that levels 11-20 shouldn't be assumed. The game should support playing the same characters indefinitely within the same playstyle of the first 10 levels. Cap all the classes at level 10, much like the current 5e is capped at 20. Provide a way for characters to expand without significantly scaling in power. More options, as opposed to more power. Add strongholds and retainers, but keep it to the mundane. Spells never go past 5th or 6th level.

Then build high level play as its own thing with its own classes. Make it optional. Allow it to be decidedly superhuman. PCs are demigods, archmages, mystic warriors, avatars to their god, etc. Basically, make levels 11 and up epic level play, which I consider to be more fitting to the power level of 7th through 9th level spells.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I’m pretty comfortable with John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf holding that territory.

I'd argue that Robin Hood isn't high level.

But you proved my point.

John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf are all different archetypes of high level fighters.

John Wick is the Action Hero
Alexios is half Action Hero and Half Mythic hero
King Authur is half Fighter lord half Christmas Tree
Achilles is a Demigod
Robin Hood is half Fighter Lord and half Deadly Hero
Beowuf is a Mythic Hero

There is no consensus. You can't build John Wick, Achilles, and King Authur as the same class without major variant rules.
 

TheSword

Legend
I'd argue that Robin Hood isn't high level.

But you proved my point.

John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf are all different archetypes of high level fighters.

John Wick is the Action Hero
Alexios is half Action Hero and Half Mythic hero
King Authur is half Fighter lord half Christmas Tree
Achilles is a Demigod
Robin Hood is half Fighter Lord and half Deadly Hero
Beowuf is a Mythic Hero

There is no consensus. You can't build John Wick, Achilles, and King Authur as the same class without major variant rules.
Of course I can. Even the Champion Fighter is a very versatile class because of feat and weapon style choices.

For the record drawing your sword as you run 30 ft, killing 8 different individuals, regenerating 10 hp a round and then healing yourself 1d20+20 all in the space of six seconds is not what I would call mundane. I have no problem creating John Wick as a fighter.
 
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GSHamster

Adventurer
I’m pretty comfortable with John Wick, Alexios, King Arthur, Achilles, Robin Hood, and Boewulf holding that territory.

Are any of them actually high level in D&D terms, though? Boewulf's great enemy is basically a troll. Robin Hood fights a sheriff. King Arthur contends with an enchantress.

None of them really have to deal with "reality-warpers", which is what a high-level D&D character has to deal with.
 

TheSword

Legend
Are any of them actually high level in D&D terms, though? Boewulf's great enemy is basically a troll. Robin Hood fights a sheriff. King Arthur contends with an enchantress.

None of them really have to deal with "reality-warpers", which is what a high-level D&D character has to deal with.
There aren’t many fictional characters that would be 20th level of any class outside actual d&d fiction though.

I’ll stick with John Wick.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Of course I can. Even the Champion Fighter is a very versatile class because of feat and weapon style choices.

For the record drawing your sword as you run 30 ft, killing 8 different individuals, regenerating 10 hp a round and then healing yourself 1d20+20 all in the space of six seconds is not what I would call mundane. I have no problem creating John Wick as a fighter.

You're missing my point.

John Wick, King Arthur and Achilles are all high level fighters. They all are superhuman at the levels they exist in. They however are completely different interpretations of what a high level fight is. You cannot take a single class subclass combinaition and add some feats to replicate them. You need to fundamentally change how the fighter workss at high levels to create them.

John Wick is an action hero. He contains most of the fighter features you see in 5e.

King Arthur? Arthur's class features are an overpowered sword and a fantasy kingdom. He has a class feature that says "Choose a legendary or rare weapon in the DMG. You have it now. You can ignore any requirements to attune with it or use it. This ittem does not count against the number of items you can have attunement with."

Achilles is a Demigod with a magical buff on top of it. He can't be dropped except by critical hits.

Robin Hood's class features is trick shots and an actual gang.

And this is before you even bring up fighters from anime/manga/manhua.

There are so man ways to interpet a high level fighter. However the discussion is rarely had because no one but the designers and a few DMs are forces to stay in the discussion and not bail if stuff they don't like enter the discussion. There is no onus to state what a high level fighter is, state what actions they can do, and how they interact with a D&D world.

It's the same thing that happens when someone asks how your nonmagical ranger tracks a dragon or a teleporting demon. Only the design team is forced to answer.
 

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