Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Stalker0]

When I heard the “fighter only gets a 10 level progression while casters get 20”, my first reaction was also “no”.

but I’m also coming around to it. I agree that you canNot make a fighter equal to a wizard by going “moar damage”, there’s just too much spellcasting has to offer.

so cutting off the fighter and saying “alright mundane is done, go pick something with pizazz” is a solid way to do it.

If you are going 20th level fighter, I think there are two paths you can take.

1) wuxia: aka book of 9 swords. Fighters effectively become spellcasters. If you can’t beat em, join em

2) Anti magic. Fighters cannot do all the fancy magic tricks, but they are the ultimate answer to them. They can cut through walls of force, reflect fireballs back at the caster, cut through summoned creatures with ease, senses that beat invisibility, they are hard to scry on, and even divination start to have trouble detecting them.

your magical power is the ability to beat magic, which is a solid niche at high levels where magic is everywhere.

 

[NotAYakk]

I think there's two general non-invasive ways to fix the issue (each of which has multiple methods to pursue).

1) Unhollow the back-end of the non-caster classes. The major difference between cleric10/wizard10 and wizard20 is that wizard20 gains a handful of potent long-rest recharge effects from a broad menu of options. (6th-9th level spells). If non-caster classes gained more potent options in the mid-teen levels on strict recharges, it would narrow the gap between the two to an appreciable degree.

2) Eliminate the back-end of all classes, and assume multiclassing. Add high-level paths available to all characters.

We could also fix cleric 10/wizard 10. So they gain access to some of their back-10, not just upcasted lower level spells.

Then ensure the same fix applies to fighter 10/barbarian 10. They'd gain access to some of each classes' back-10.

Then check that something like fighter 10/wizard 10 works. What back-10 access does it get access to?

(note that I mean back-10 in a fuzzy kind of way, not exactly 11 to 20. I'm talking about the issue that in last 10 levels, Wizard tiers become increasingly gonzo (Ask a god for advice 1/day? How about no-save cages on anything large or smaller? Or has a pocket demiplane, a no-save banishment. Turn into a dragon? Create a 50% copy of yourself as an action that lasts forever? Create a CR 9 ally for a month as an action? Gain advantage on everything and disadvantage on being attacked for 8 hours?), while fighters go from 2 attacks/round with action surge to 4 attacks/round with 2 action surges).

I don't think the answer is "make wizards suck". Rather, we need a narrative reason why fighters are more than "hit with stick" and "hit with stick HARDER" in tier-3/4.

A paragon path you get to pick at level 10ish, and an epic destiny you get to pick at 15ish, would do it.

 

[Krachek]

I wonder why fighter hero in fantasy always find a way to overcome the evil priest or wizard.

 

[Gadget]

I have long espoused the idea that classes in 5e should have been 10 levels for you 'base' class, followed by choosing a paragon path/epic destiny/ prestige class that took you in a slightly different direction once you reached that stage of the the game. Most of the high level class features, with a few exceptions, could almost be swapped with lower level features to little effect; condense it down to 10 levels or so, then have the game changes in some fundamental way once you reach the next tier of play.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I wonder why fighter hero in fantasy always find a way to overcome the evil priest or wizard.

I'd say is generally a mix of plot-armor and the bad habit of evil priest/wizard to monologue instead of casting their damn spell of world-ending magnitude.

Maybe if A5E had a mechanic that forced spellcasters to do a 1-minute monologue before casting spell of 6+ level, explaining the why and how they cast their spell, the endgame would be balanced

 

[Krachek]

I'd say is generally a mix of plot-armor and the bad habit of evil priest/wizard to monologue instead of casting their damn spell of world-ending magnitude.

Maybe if A5E had a mechanic that forced spellcasters to do a 1-minute monologue before casting spell of 6+ level, explaining the why and how they cast their spell, the endgame would be balanced

All hero fighter are expert in deception!

 

[renbot]

Or how about we take the players who want their character to shape-shift into a dragon, Sprout fortresses from the ground, create demiplanes, help crops grow, and encourage them to play something other than a fighter? I think making Fighters able to both withstand and dish out incredible punishment IS how they should level. If you want epic magic play a spellcaster

 

[Stalker0]

I wonder why fighter hero in fantasy always find a way to overcome the evil priest or wizard.

Three reasons:

1) Plot Armor. The fighter wins because he is supposed to win.

2) Low level wizards. Wizards in most fantasy are Not high level dnd wizards. They might have one “high level trick” they can pull off here or there, but they do not get the regular access to world altering magic.

3) spells vulnerable to mundane means. This is going back to my “anti magic fighter” note above. In various fantasies fighters can often counter spells . They can knock back spells with their sword, throw off domination with “sheer will”.

planar travel generally always has a path back fkr the fighter, entanglements can be cleaved away with a blade, etc

 

[NotAYakk]

Or how about we take the players who want their character to shape-shift into a dragon, Sprout fortresses from the ground, create demiplanes, help crops grow, and encourage them to play something other than a fighter? I think making Fighters able to both withstand and dish out incredible punishment IS how they should level. If you want epic magic play a spellcaster

I am not seeing anyone suggest that we give fighters polymorph.

Rather, from 5 to 20 wizards go from a 7d8 fireball to polymorph ancient dragon.

Fighters go from 2 attacks to 4.

Fighter attacks go from 1d12+4 to 1d12+5. To hit goes from +7 to +11.

There is a lot of room for the fighter to get cool fighter stuff from 11 to 20.

 

[Azzy]

Sign me up for the mythic fighter.