What is Vancian magic and does DnD have it?

[Theroc]

I'm not sure what to say to that.

Nor was I... though that doesn't strike me as very... neutral. I mean, it seems a bit overkill... but then again I don't know what harm the women attempted, and even if I did, I think I'd feel rape+slavery was a bit excessive a response for a 'neutral' character.

 

[rogueattorney]

For what it's worth, Gygax answered the OP's question at length in The Dragon #33 (January 1980). For those without the hard copy or the handy-dandy Dragon Archive CD-Rom, an excerpt:

When it came time to translate the rather cut-and-dried stuff of Chainmail’s “Fantasy Supplement” to D&D, far more selection and flexibility had to be delivered, for the latter game was free-form. This required me to back up several steps to a point where the figure began a career which would eventually bring him or her to the state where they would equal (and eventually exceed) a Chainmail wizard. Similarly, some basis for the use of magic had to be created so that a system of spell acquisition could be devised. Where should the magic power come from? Literature gave many possible answers, but most were unsuitable for a game, for they demanded that the spell-caster spend an inordinate amount of time preparing the spell. No viable adventurer character could be devised where a week or two of preliminary steps were demanded for the conjuration of some not particularly mighty spell. On the other hand, spell-casters could not be given license to
broadcast magic whenever and wherever they chose.

This left me with two major areas to select from. The internal power, or manna, system where each spell-caster uses energy from within to effect magic, requires assigning a total point value to each such character’s manna, and a cost in points to each spell. It is tedious to keep track of, difficult to police, and allows Magic-Users far too much freedom where a broad range of spells are given. If spell points were to be used, it would require that either selection be limited or all other characters and monsters be strengthened. Otherwise, spell-users woud quickly come to dominate the game, and participants would desire to play only that class of character. (As a point of reference, readers are referred to the handling of psionic abilities as originally treated in Eldritch Wizardry. Therein, psionic manna was assumed, the internal power usable to tap external sources, and the range of possible powers thus usable was sharply limited.)

Having read widely in the fantasy genre since 1950, I opted instead for the oft-used system which assumes that magic comes from power locked within certain words and phrases which are uttered to release the force. This mnemonic power system was exceedingly well articulated by Jack Vance in his superb The Eyes of The Overworld and Dying Earth novels, as well as in various short stories. In memorizing the magical words, the brain of the would-be spell-caster is taxed by the charged force of these syllables. To increase capacity, the spell-caster must undergo training, study, and mental discipline.

The article further goes on to talk about the influence DeCamp & Pratt's "Harold Shea" stories had on 1e AD&D - the Verbal, Somatic, and Material components. Not listed in the article, but one of the works listed in the DMG's Appendix N was Bellair's Face in the Frost, which I also think had a big influence on the portrayal of magic-users in D&D, particularly the use of spell books.

 

[nightwyrm]

If you think of casters as artillery pieces, it's fairly easy to understand how the Vancian fire-and-forget magic system became favoured when D&D emerged from its wargaming roots.

 

[Cadfan]

Nor was I... though that doesn't strike me as very... neutral. I mean, it seems a bit overkill... but then again I don't know what harm the women attempted, and even if I did, I think I'd feel rape+slavery was a bit excessive a response for a 'neutral' character.

In spoiler blocks.
[SBLOCK]
The one he sold to be raped: She ruled a kingdom after usurping power from the prior ruler when he lost the magical item that let him control demons. Cugel reappeared, wearing the magic item, and impersonating the individual who rightly owned it. There was conflict, in which Cugel wins basically everything only to lose it all again, in typical Cugel style. She also loses everything. They both end up banished together, and at Cugel's suggestion, they travel through a forest popularly believed to be inhabited by dangerous beasts. In reality it is more likely that there are bandits. He agrees to sell her to the bandits to be raped in exchange for escort through the forest, and it is implied, in exchange for them not attacking him. She objects, obviously, and he tells her that he has a cunning plan and she just needs to play along. In reality he has no such plan and was just shutting her up.

The girl he personally rapes is the resident of a town he arrives at soon after. There Cugel is offered a job as a watchman. This job pays a great deal and comes with housing. It also has an extra perk- he may pick any girl in the village as his wife, whether she agrees or not. This is what really sells it for Cugel. He picks the most beautiful girl he can, even though she's obviously got a lover. She ignores him and his selection of her. Angry about this, Cugel goes to his first evening of work, where he finds that he's been locked into his watchtower. It turns out that the town has a curse such that it will be destroyed if ever the watchtower is unmanned, so they lock people into the tower to serve for life, or until they kill themselves. Cugel escapes, essentially kidnaps the girl, and the town is destroyed. He rapes her in the boat as the town is slaughtered and she sobs. Then the boat capsizes and she dies.

After that, more wacky adventures!
[/SBLOCK]

This is where I put the book down.

 

[Doug McCrae]

As you note, both women had done harm or attempted to do harm to Cugel. Characters that "pull no tricks" on Cugel fare much better. Cugel is a great example of a character of Neutral alignment.

Are you saying he only rapes women who deserve it?

 

[pawsplay]

Dur? What rape scenes are there in Terry Pratchett? I've read pretty much every Discworld novel, and a number of his YA fiction as well. I'm drawing a complete blank as to a single rape scene in any Terry Pratchett book.

Greebo, in human form, rapes a couple of women.

 

[Imperialus]

In spoiler blocks.
[SBLOCK] The girl he personally rapes is the resident of a town he arrives at soon after. There Cugel is offered a job as a watchman. This job pays a great deal and comes with housing. It also has an extra perk- he may pick any girl in the village as his wife, whether she agrees or not. This is what really sells it for Cugel. He picks the most beautiful girl he can, even though she's obviously got a lover. She ignores him and his selection of her. Angry about this, Cugel goes to his first evening of work, where he finds that he's been locked into his watchtower. It turns out that the town has a curse such that it will be destroyed if ever the watchtower is unmanned, so they lock people into the tower to serve for life, or until they kill themselves. Cugel escapes, essentially kidnaps the girl, and the town is destroyed. He rapes her in the boat as the town is slaughtered and she sobs. Then the boat capsizes and she dies.

After that, more wacky adventures!
[/SBLOCK]

This is where I put the book down.

Weird... Almost the exact same thing happens to Adam Reith in City of the Chasch (or one of the Planet of Adventure novels) only minus the rape.

 

[Korgoth]

I don't buy that as an excuse. Even in the day Vance wrote, rape was not "moral grey area". Rape doesn't make one a "despised crook" - it makes you a villain.

I'm not sure I get the concept of an "excuse" here. Cugel's casual evil ("evil", not "neutrality") is part of the world of the so-called "Dying Earth". There are very few (though there are a few) characters in DE that are actually good. Most everyone is a layabout, get over artist, liar, cheat, cynic and scoundrel if not an outright sociopath.

Or did you think that "Dying Earth" referred only to the planet? The DE is a satire in the classical sense of a work exposing human moral failings.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

As you note, both women had done harm or attempted to do harm to Cugel. Characters that "pull no tricks" on Cugel fare much better. Cugel is a great example of a character of Neutral alignment.

No NE is the best I can go with that, if not CE as he seems to do what he want when he wants to do it and does not really care about anything else.

 

[Melan]

Then I must admit that Vance's portrayal of women is pretty weak. To his defense, he never really tries; his books portray few females and none in leading roles.

Wayness in Ecce and Old Earth is a rather strong exception.